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History made in India: Govt agrees to anti-corruption bill

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

31–40 of 67 posts

Re: History made in India: Govt agrees to anti-corruption bill

#31

(note: I don't mean to be rude, but this comment has barely been up for 1 minute and I'm already being down-voted. Surely no one can read something this long this fast and down-vote even faster. I've tried to write a reasoned critique of the phenomena before me. It's not a political comment, but a logical one.) Any constitution is a fine balance of power, a body like this which concentrates power outside of the const…

Let me try to give a perspective on the reality that is faced by most Indians. This is a general analysis and not a position on the Lokpal bill itself.

Corruption at the lower level of bureaucracy:

Corruption/graft is faced by people every day in common functions of their life. The market incentives are there to support graft (low salaries, a huge imbalance in supply and demand - contributed in part due to a very large Indian population, wide disparity in income distributions).

But consider that there are limited or no checks against corrupt officers. We got the Right to Information Act (RTI) recently due to civil activism. RTI enables you to get data from public offices. A lot of times this data is enough to point out instances of corruption. So you can point out corruption, but when you want somebody to act on it, its so far neigh impossible to see action. Police won't register your case easily, so a common man is left with very little avenue to pursue this further. RTI activists and whistleblowers experience a lot of hostility. 10 were murdered in 2010 alone for bringing to light scams and corruption cases.

There is a strong erosion of trust from Government and Public offices. The word correctly describing the situation is malaise. Folks are sick and tired of experiencing day to day exploitation. As with any typical malaise, it crept up, slowly and steadily, steeped into our systems.

The bill is seen as hope by a large section of the public as a first step towards fighting corruption. Hence the hundreds of thousands of people out on the street protesting. Peacefully. Not rioting.

I too have concerns with regards to the policing of the Lokpal body. Or who will guard the guards. But strong public opinion and action on corruption is needed.

Re: History made in India: Govt agrees to anti-corruption bill

#32

(note: I don't mean to be rude, but this comment has barely been up for 1 minute and I'm already being down-voted. Surely no one can read something this long this fast and down-vote even faster. I've tried to write a reasoned critique of the phenomena before me. It's not a political comment, but a logical one.) Any constitution is a fine balance of power, a body like this which concentrates power outside of the const…

More of Pseudo-Gandhian deeds of Anna Hazare. http://www.punemirror.in/article/2/2010101220101012233239336...

Re: History made in India: Govt agrees to anti-corruption bill

#34
For a country full of software engineers and business process engineers, India's pathetic bureaucracy has not been in any mood to modernize. Most modernization efforts have been to buy a couple of PCs load up Windows and wait for magic to somehow happen. It has not.

Open accounting, transparent gvernance etc were supposed to have happened by now, they haven't. The bureaucracy is also extremely dismissive of anything industry suggests as a better way of doing things. Anything that devolves their ability to sit on approvals or wield power is shot down immediately. The existing bureaucracy is a waste of tax payer money and an example of redundant waste.

Even Slovenia now has bench-marked, transparent and open accounting systems.

Re: History made in India: Govt agrees to anti-corruption bill

#35

(note: I don't mean to be rude, but this comment has barely been up for 1 minute and I'm already being down-voted. Surely no one can read something this long this fast and down-vote even faster. I've tried to write a reasoned critique of the phenomena before me. It's not a political comment, but a logical one.) Any constitution is a fine balance of power, a body like this which concentrates power outside of the const…

Corruption exists for historical reasons and because the Govt has not had the spine to go after pilfered assets and corrupt officials as it was perceived as too big a problem.

Similar problem existed in Hong Kong and was solved using similar means as this bill.

The reflection argument only works when the people have visibility into the government machine, which did not exist until recently, with greater mass media, RTI and even youtube/facebook etc. Even people from villages are on these channels.

The janlokpal bill is as good an example of people shaping their government as anything else.

Re: History made in India: Govt agrees to anti-corruption bill

#36
I think this forum perhaps would understand best what is the real cause of corruption in India. In a place like Singapore an entrepreneur need to take around 7 permission to start construction, in India you need to take 30+. Is the way to reduce corruption is to bring a new inspector who will looks after all those 30+ permission processes or to reduce these permission to 5 ?

Indian government employes 3 million employees out of which 1.4 million are employed purely by railways. Does it make sense for the Ombudman to appoint 7000 inspectors to look after Indian Railways corruption or Should the railways try to thin its staff by outsourcing most of it's processes?

Does it make sense to waster tax-payer's money on an ombudsman inspector to look after corruption in a loss making government factory that manufactures soap ? (Yes, in India government runs soap companies). Or should it get rid of that factory itself ?

If you want to start a hotel you need to take around 300 permissions our of which most needs to be renewed yearly. One permission for example is from the 'weights and measurements' department which certifies that all the weighing scales in your hotel are up-to the standards. No one bothers to get their scales checked they just send a packet of money to 'weights and measures' department and get permissions.

The root cause of corruption in India is not in lack of some laws but the policies which government has put in deliberately to ensure that politicians are in position to control every aspect of it's people's life.

In software terms I would say Indian government is a case of bad architectural layout. You have a zillion components tightly coupled with another zillion components which are affecting performance of the system. If someone wants to be efficient he has to hack the system. Adding another layer over this bad architecture does not solve any porblem, you need to fix the basic architecture first. Then talk about ombudsman.

Re: History made in India: Govt agrees to anti-corruption bill

#37
post #27

(note: I don't mean to be rude, but this comment has barely been up for 1 minute and I'm already being down-voted. Surely no one can read something this long this fast and down-vote even faster. I've tried to write a reasoned critique of the phenomena before me. It's not a political comment, but a logical one.) Any constitution is a fine balance of power, a body like this which concentrates power outside of the const…

The Indian leader Mayawati has already demanded that there should be reservation for SC/ST/OBC in Lokpal members. http://www.hindustantimes.com/Maya-seeks-reservation-for-SC-... If this continues, I dont see JLB being any effective in rooting out corruption. It will end up being just another layer of bureocracy. Edit:added link

You are correct. Full agreement.

Re: History made in India: Govt agrees to anti-corruption bill

#38
post #18
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree. It seems like a media driven phenomenon. Incompetence is a bigger problem than corruption in India. The systemic problems that face the society need ambition, will and technology. This solution is too simplistic for me to be taken seriously.

> Incompetence is a bigger problem than corruption in India. The systemic problems that face the society need ambition, will and technology. This is the elephant in the room when it comes to India. There is just a huge amount of apathy amongst the people. A simple example is how much produce rots to waste as a result of poor transportation/refrigeration. There are so many processes crying out to be optimized. As a US…

Exactly. Why is it that the smaller national highways and a few of the biggest airports only got nationalized recently (i.e., the past 2 years)? It's most likely that that the 2010 Commonwealth Games in Delhi temporarily broke the spell of apathetic stupor. (or perhaps this only applies to South India, in which case that would be sad yet telling, since South India is the home to most of India's IT sector.)

India's high population and smaller landmass (--> higher pop dens) requires innovative, planned, coordinated strategies to conserve resources. To say that India is a democracy does not mean that it is a meritocracy. It still seems to be more like a feudal-like hierarchy inherited from the British, which itself was usurped and adapted from the feudal monarchies before. Most post-colonial states wrestle with issues of being too top-down, despotic, nepotistic.

Laws are only really worth anything if they can be adjudicated and enforced. What good is a law that no one respects? Everything is all about institutions and what they do, so celebrating a law might be premature since it's only 1/3 of the entire end goal -- you need the judiciary and the executive on the same page and working, too.

Re: History made in India: Govt agrees to anti-corruption bill

#39

I think this forum perhaps would understand best what is the real cause of corruption in India. In a place like Singapore an entrepreneur need to take around 7 permission to start construction, in India you need to take 30+. Is the way to reduce corruption is to bring a new inspector who will looks after all those 30+ permission processes or to reduce these permission to 5 ? Indian government employes 3 million emplo…

Have you seen this or not ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CHcKlIsvAQ

It is not adding another layer, it is refactoring the system based on good evidence that this has worked before.

People talking about real cause and root cause are welcome to start a movement to solve that. When you are able to convince a few friends and gather a few followers, please let us know.

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