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The World's Deadliest Thing

the-angry-chef.com

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Re: The World's Deadliest Thing

#201

Post by munificent »

traceroute66 wrote: post #94
Stratoscope wrote: post #35

Pop quiz! Do you ever buy frozen vacuum-sealed fish? The kind where each piece is sealed in its own plastic pouch? It is convenient and delicious. To me it can taste fresher than some "fresh" fish. One reason is that the sealed pouch keeps oxygen out. Have you wondered why it says "remove all packaging before defrosting"? And ignored that advice like I did for many years? After all, the fish seems to defrost just fin…

> Do you ever buy frozen vacuum-sealed fish? The kind where each piece is sealed in its own plastic pouch? It is convenient and delicious. To me it can taste fresher than some "fresh" fish. Eeew. No. Call me old-fashioned but I believe in this thing called seasonality. I only buy fish that is in season, not farmed, and that is genuinely fresh from reputable suppliers, not supermarket "fresh". Nice clear bright eyes,…

The fish you buy even from reputable suppliers was very likely flash frozen on the boat before it ever reached land. Many fishing boats are out for several days or weeks at a time. So just because it's only been on land a short time, that doesn't mean it's recently caught.

This is a good thing because many fish harbor parasites that are killed when flash frozen. Your home freezer doesn't reliably get cold enough to take them out. You can reliably kill them by cooking very thoroughly, but since fish is such a delicate meat, the line between "may still have wriggling worms" and "overcooked, dry, and unpalatable" can be quite fine.

Re: The World's Deadliest Thing

#202

Post by PebblesRox »

"The only case linked to a commercially produced food product in that time was non-fatal, involving a man who ate some hummus that had been left out of the fridge for several weeks and smelt so bad that other members of his family refused to go near it."

Reminds me of a conversation between my brothers after some food fell on the floor:

"You're going to eat that?"

"Yeah, I have an immune system."

"So do I -- and mine includes the part of me that goes 'Ewww, don't stick that in your mouth.'"

Re: The World's Deadliest Thing

#203

Post by Chris2048 »

Stratoscope wrote: post #35

Pop quiz! Do you ever buy frozen vacuum-sealed fish? The kind where each piece is sealed in its own plastic pouch? It is convenient and delicious. To me it can taste fresher than some "fresh" fish. One reason is that the sealed pouch keeps oxygen out. Have you wondered why it says "remove all packaging before defrosting"? And ignored that advice like I did for many years? After all, the fish seems to defrost just fin…

> just right for botulinum and listeria

But if it was frozen, wouldn't that kill off any bacteria? Then, as a sealed environment, there wouldn't be anything to grow, even if the environment is just right.

edit: ignore this comment, I just read how the spores are resistant to boiling/freezing...

Re: The World's Deadliest Thing

#204

Post by phonypc »

Chris2048 wrote: post #203
Stratoscope wrote: post #35

Pop quiz! Do you ever buy frozen vacuum-sealed fish? The kind where each piece is sealed in its own plastic pouch? It is convenient and delicious. To me it can taste fresher than some "fresh" fish. One reason is that the sealed pouch keeps oxygen out. Have you wondered why it says "remove all packaging before defrosting"? And ignored that advice like I did for many years? After all, the fish seems to defrost just fin…

> just right for botulinum and listeria But if it was frozen, wouldn't that kill off any bacteria? Then, as a sealed environment, there wouldn't be anything to grow, even if the environment is just right. edit: ignore this comment, I just read how the spores are resistant to boiling/freezing...

Freezing doesn't kill bacteria. Reliably, anyway.

Re: The World's Deadliest Thing

#205

Post by jandrese »

chronogram wrote: post #89
awild wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On top of that, people should remember that while honey is naturally microbially stable. It is not actively anti microbial. Mixing it into your dish will not make it more shelf stable. The stability is simply because it's too dry for microbial activity. I'm mentioning this because it's a common misconception in fermentation communities.

You’d imagine the fermentation communities have heard of mead!

Doesn't mead production start off by introducing water to the honey?

Re: The World's Deadliest Thing

#206

Post by Chris2048 »

cs702 wrote: post #153

What a fantastic find of an article! It's not every day that I get to read about a microbe so deadly that a small jar would be enough to kill all of humanity , so difficult to weaponize that no nation or group has ever been able to build weapons with it, so important to our modern food system that it has altered the taste of almost every packaged food we eat, and so widely used for cosmetic facial procedures that eve…

It'd be interesting to know why it's so difficult to weaponize. Is the caveat that the toxin is only so deadly once in the bloodstream, but is otherwise hard to get there?

Re: The World's Deadliest Thing

#207

Post by Helmut10001 »

glenstein wrote: post #142
Helmut10001 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you put your sealed fish in cold tap water, it will thaw in less than 15 Minutes. 15 Minutes is not enough for the bacteria to produce these toxins.

Right, that was going to be my question. Wouldn't botulism etc need a certain amount of time to grow? Is any normal use case of defrosting in a microwave long enough for that to happen? Is there a safe zone of X minutes, and then an unsafe zone of Y minutes where it gets dangerous?

Fast defrosting in Microwave or sealed, in cold water, is at least better than some of the other suggestions, like poking the seal and slow defrosting over 24 hours in the fridge. In the fridge and without a seal, the effects of exposing fish to other bacteria are really difficult to control.

Re: The World's Deadliest Thing

#208

Post by [deleted] »

Karunamon wrote: post #163
traceroute66 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> American cheese on fish is gross American cheese is gross full stop. ;-) As is American chocolate.

European chocolate tastes dull. Snark aside, it's about what you grew up with. Fascinating video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J44svaQc5WY

[deleted]

Re: The World's Deadliest Thing

#209

Post by weaksauce »

dustintrex wrote: post #65
Stratoscope wrote: post #35

Pop quiz! Do you ever buy frozen vacuum-sealed fish? The kind where each piece is sealed in its own plastic pouch? It is convenient and delicious. To me it can taste fresher than some "fresh" fish. One reason is that the sealed pouch keeps oxygen out. Have you wondered why it says "remove all packaging before defrosting"? And ignored that advice like I did for many years? After all, the fish seems to defrost just fin…

Is this really a risk in practice though? I can't find any cases of this actually happening on the CDC's botulism site: https://www.cdc.gov/botulism/surveillance.html

it's a risk for certain fish and if you defrost the fish in the fridge for days... but as it stands botulism is not a very common thing to worry about in modern society. there are about 200 poisonings per year in the us. a lot are junkies using shared and dirty needles... babies eating honey is another large one. maybe about 20-50 per year in the us is an adult getting food borne botulism.

in any event yes it is risky to defrost the fish in a vacuum sealed bag but only if you thaw it for a few days or more like that. 50F fridge is about 2 days and 45F fridge is a few more days before there is growth: https://www.riskyornot.co/episodes/34-thawing-frozen-fish-in...

Fwiw i just thaw it the day i use it in cold water for < 1hr and it's almost certainly fine to use that day.

Re: The World's Deadliest Thing

#210

Post by weaksauce »

glenstein wrote: post #142
Helmut10001 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you put your sealed fish in cold tap water, it will thaw in less than 15 Minutes. 15 Minutes is not enough for the bacteria to produce these toxins.

Right, that was going to be my question. Wouldn't botulism etc need a certain amount of time to grow? Is any normal use case of defrosting in a microwave long enough for that to happen? Is there a safe zone of X minutes, and then an unsafe zone of Y minutes where it gets dangerous?

it takes days for the botulism to grow under a vacuum in your fridge depending on temp.(a proper fridge should be 35-40F but many are much higher than that. 50F takes 2 days or so to form)

https://www.riskyornot.co/episodes/34-thawing-frozen-fish-in...

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