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Automatically detecting and replying to recruiter spam

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Re: Automatically detecting and replying to recruiter spam

#91

Post by gizdan »

AlwaysRock wrote: post #88
gizdan wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: half of those are based on bots, and thus when you reply, you're automatically ignored because your profile doesn't really fit. Counterpoint: I really don't want spam in my email. I've got LinkedIn for that. I get countless emails from recruiters because they use some tool that scrapes LinkedIn and guesses my email. Then I get "I have a role for you, pls respond", "Please hear me out, great role!", "Las…

I agree to some extend but... Yell? How is a recruiter supposed to know you are okay with LI messages but draw a hard line at emails? A text shortener that populates, "I don't use email for recruiting messages. Please reach out on Linkedin. I'll block your domain if you send follow up emails." is direct and doesnt cause someone trying to do their job to get yelled at for not knowing your specific preference...

They should know because my email isn't available anywhere online for a reason. Every time I reply to ask where they got my email, they mention some service that scrapes emails based on LinkedIn addresses. This isn't okay. That's spam. They're clearly trying to avoid LI's platform for whatever reason (probably cost).

It's not just about blocking domains, it's about figuring out what those services are and yelling at them for scraping my data and assuming I want them to hold my email when I've not put those details online.

Re: Automatically detecting and replying to recruiter spam

#92

Post by Macha »

spacehunt wrote: post #90
Macha wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't make it an acceptable reason to do so. They could probably google my home address easier than get LinkedIn to disintermediate themselves, but a barrage of recruiters at my doorstep would not be appreciated.

The truth is they probably don't know. These days the process of guesstimating an email address behind a LinkedIn profile is highly automated. Very often what a recruiter see on their dashboard is basically a list of potential candidates' LinkedIn profiles, paired with a list of plausible email addresses for each of them (with no indication of how the bots got them in the first place).

Automating a behaviour I disapprove of doesn't make me disapprove of their actions less.

Re: Automatically detecting and replying to recruiter spam

#93

Post by snth »

pc86 wrote: post #87
mvc wrote: post #27

I don't understand the attitute that most software engineers seem to have with recruiters. My early years as a software developer were in locations where opportunities were not like they are in your big tech centers. In those years, recruiters would get you a foot in the door and you were grateful for any opportunities that came. Even in big tech centers, until you build your own network, recruiters will likely be an…

There are (at the highest level) two kinds recruiters. Those that work for a company filling that company's internal roles, and those that work for a body shop filling the roles of whatever companies agree to pay them a commission. The former are usually pretty good. They have an idea what the teams need, even if they don't know the specifics of the individual technologies. They usually have very close relationships…

> The former are usually pretty good.

From the other side of this: as a developer who is required to _use_ in-house recruiters as part of hiring, my experience has almost never been good. I don't know if the incentives are bad, or if we just have a _much_ lower bar for hiring recruiters than developers, but our recruiters can't be depended upon for simple things like sending prep emails to candidates or telling us what position a candidate is interviewing for. I honestly think we'd be better off cutting them totally out of the process.

Re: Automatically detecting and replying to recruiter spam

#94

Post by Kalium »

gonehome wrote: post #85
Kalium wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately often, I've found that being kind to recruiters and generous with my time pays off in consuming more of my time. I'd very much like to believe that being kind to people on my way up will pay off, be paid back, or otherwise come back to me. So far it mostly gets me treated as a soft touch. I don't want to feel important. I want people to have some base amount of respect for my time, energy, and attention…

Sure - there’s no need to reply to 90% of recruiter emails (I don’t), but that doesn’t mean people need to talk so dismissively and condescendingly of them “recruiter spam” and such. Just don’t reply and be happy we don’t need to.

How else should we discuss the emails and cold calls? Perhaps in terms of how sincere and how hard-working they are or how much effort the recruiters we don't want to talk to put into reaching us? Or should we simply remain silent, tolerating this behavior stoically because being displeased is a cruel status display?

I increasingly don't reply, but I'm also aware that greeting outreach with silence is a far cry from kindness. I have trouble believing that this is really the best option. I'm really not sure what to tell my juniors - nobody really wants to hear that being bothered frequently by self-interested parties is just part of the burden of privilege.

Re: Automatically detecting and replying to recruiter spam

#95

Post by bradlys »

whoisjuan wrote: post #12

In LinkedIn I have my first name as my first name + middle initial. I always know when is a mass message or a real personalized message based on whether or not they include that initial. Works surprisingly well for me but sadly for LinkedIn that’s a case of an implementation detail totally destroying their value proposition for recruiters.

I add an emoji to the front of my name. 90% of emails I get are clearly bots.

Anyone who thinks there are majority real people behind these emails is a fool.

Re: Automatically detecting and replying to recruiter spam

#97

Post by Kalium »

jlund-molfese wrote: post #78
mvc wrote: post #27

I don't understand the attitute that most software engineers seem to have with recruiters. My early years as a software developer were in locations where opportunities were not like they are in your big tech centers. In those years, recruiters would get you a foot in the door and you were grateful for any opportunities that came. Even in big tech centers, until you build your own network, recruiters will likely be an…

These days, receiving a third-party recruiter email has a very weak correlation with skills or ability to get a good job. Even FAANG recruiters frequently email me about roles I’m obviously not qualified for, and ignore me if I reply back to ask about opportunities which align with my skillset. First-party recruiters are usually fine. They’re how I got my first industry job, and they can guide you through the applica…

I routinely get cold calls from recruiters, several a month these days. It's exceptionally rarely anyone I actually want to talk to with a position I'm even slightly interested in. They're reliably talking up a "great opportunity" that offers uninspiring hourly pay on an unimpressive contract-to-hire and requires I relocate myself to somewhere I have no other reason to want to be. Probably a third to a half of them are, based on the quality of the connection and speech patterns, calling from body-shops in a much poorer country.

I strongly suspect that there's a whole industry out there running on what amounts to amortized lottery odds. Since they're working from some place where people and calls are very cheap, they just throw more cold calls at everything.

Re: Automatically detecting and replying to recruiter spam

#98

Post by skeeter2020 »

mvc wrote: post #27

I don't understand the attitute that most software engineers seem to have with recruiters. My early years as a software developer were in locations where opportunities were not like they are in your big tech centers. In those years, recruiters would get you a foot in the door and you were grateful for any opportunities that came. Even in big tech centers, until you build your own network, recruiters will likely be an…

>> Be kind to your recruiters. You never know what the future holds.

I am sorry to all the targeted, respectful and genuinely nice recruiters out there, but your scummy co-workers have peed in the pool and wrecked it for everyone.

You are not talking about the same recruiters as the OP. I get unsolicited email that I'm sure has value to me, but it all gets classified as spam. MY ACID TEST: If you have a recruiter reach out to you on LinkedIn with an opportunity and after you tell them you're not interested and they still reply "OK, I'd love to stay in touch for future opportunities" or something similar, they're likely NOT the time wasters the OP is highlighting. Sadly the vast majority (including internal recruiters from FAANG+) will never reply as you can't do anything for them in their spammy numbers game. It is entirely appropriate to treat these recruiters with disdain.

Re: Automatically detecting and replying to recruiter spam

#99

Post by skeeter2020 »

pc86 wrote: post #87
mvc wrote: post #27

I don't understand the attitute that most software engineers seem to have with recruiters. My early years as a software developer were in locations where opportunities were not like they are in your big tech centers. In those years, recruiters would get you a foot in the door and you were grateful for any opportunities that came. Even in big tech centers, until you build your own network, recruiters will likely be an…

There are (at the highest level) two kinds recruiters. Those that work for a company filling that company's internal roles, and those that work for a body shop filling the roles of whatever companies agree to pay them a commission. The former are usually pretty good. They have an idea what the teams need, even if they don't know the specifics of the individual technologies. They usually have very close relationships…

I keep getting the same unsolicited inquiries from Amazon internal for roles that aren't a great fit in a city I don't live in, respond accordingly and never get any type of response again, until the next internal recruiter (with the average tenure of < 12 months). This is no different from the second type of recruiter you highlight.

Re: Automatically detecting and replying to recruiter spam

#100

Post by skeeter2020 »

ajb wrote: post #29
mvc wrote: post #27

I don't understand the attitute that most software engineers seem to have with recruiters. My early years as a software developer were in locations where opportunities were not like they are in your big tech centers. In those years, recruiters would get you a foot in the door and you were grateful for any opportunities that came. Even in big tech centers, until you build your own network, recruiters will likely be an…

There are some good recruiters. But the problem is that recruiting is like being a real estate agent or rental agent: there is a big payoff for each transaction (up to 20% of 1 candidate years salary), and low barrier to entry. So there are an awful lot of people whose model is to 'drum up business' by hassling engineers.

THIS! It's also why there seems to be just as many good recruiters when times are good or bad; the barrier is so low that people move in and out of the career easily. It's the worst example of "hussle without any tech skills" in our industry.
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