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Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

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671–680 of 704 posts

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#671
post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not today. I guess I should have been more clear I'm speaking about the Western World. In 50 years, consumption of animal meat will be like caviar+cigarettes+segregated bathrooms are today in the Western World. The rest of the world? Too many variables, depends a lot on climate change.

I think it's a lot more likely that in 50 years, per capita animal consumption will be higher than today, simply because the subgroups that tend to favor vegetarianism are shrinking as a share of the overall global population (and tend not to have as many children), whereas global income is increasing. Certainly global meat consumption has been on the rise, going from 150 Billion kilograms in 1990, to more than 350 b…

It's interesting to note that despite the best efforts of the animal rights movement and the increased numbers of people choosing vegetarian or vegan options in recent years (so it seems, I've read many articles that say so) meat production and consumption has continued to increase steadily over the years:

https://ourworldindata.org/meat-production#meat-production

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-meat-consumption-pe...

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#672
post #625

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak for the person you're replying to, but some people adhere to a consequentialist worldview, where intent does not matter (or matters relatively little). It's the same outlook that creates the need for good Samaritan laws. I don't agree with it in whole form, but it should be recognized as a valid philosophical framework.

I understand that, but I have a hard time believing a vegan diet could possibly harm animals more than an omnivore diet. Like it just sound so absurd and I run in to a lot of people online that just seem to want to bullshit themselves about veganism for some reason. Like the guy that said I was killing deer by eating only plants because it means more tractors and tractors can run over deer… that seems to me to be a s…

I don't know if this is helpful, but this 2003 research estimates about 6 animal deaths per acre of agricultural harvest, or about 7.3 million animals.[1] That puts it about on par with industrial animal consumption. But granted it seems much more difficult to have accurate estimates.

I think part of the problem is that most people in industrialized economies are extremely far removed from the food supply. I don't think it's super common, but also not unheard of for deer (especially fawns) to be killed by harvesting machinery as they bed down in fields. Considering hunting a deer may yield 60-70 lbs of meat, it might be possible to claim that reduces total animal deaths. Now I don't know how you'd arrive at a final number because most people are omnivores and still eat plants, but I don't know if I'd immediately dismiss their claim as absurd.

I see from your profile that you work in the farming machinery business so I'd be curious if there are any specific mitigations you would consider to alleviate this problem?

[1] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10806-018-9733-8

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, farmers do go out and rescue cows (and sheep, and goats, and pigs, and chickens) from the wilderness all the time. Really? How many of the 70 billion land animals per year slaughtered for food were rescued from the wilderness, as opposed to bred in captivity? > Btw, what happens if we stop breeding farm animals? What's the plan at that point [for the ones alive]? The ones currently alive will be eaten by omniv…

> Really? How many of the 70 billion land animals per year slaughtered for food were rescued from the wilderness, as opposed to bred in captivity? How should I know? There's no statistics about that kind of thing. And yet it happens all the time: that's why farm animals have bells around the neck so that when they wander off and fall into a ravine or get stuck on a tree (goats, for you) the farmer can find them. But…

It's a rhetorical question, I don't actually care what the number is because it's diminishingly small. Farmers breed their animals, they're not filling the ranks of their livestock by going out and rescuing wild animals. I'm not talking about livestock that wander off the farm.

And you're not silly. I said the argument is silly. We all can make silly arguments from time to time when we don't really think a line of reasoning through or consider what the other person is saying. It wasn't my intention to attack your intelligence or integrity, sorry to have created this unpleasant interaction.

We obviously disagree on how rewarding the "gift of life" is. I know I wouldn't want to be a farm animal, and would prefer not to exist in the first place rather than live their life. With all due respect, I think it's you who doesn't have a clear mental model of farming at scale. You paint farming like it's your uncle's happy farm down the road. That's not how most people are getting their food. That doesn't scale to 70 billion land animals per year.

> Well I won't beat about the bush as you do. I think what you propose is demented. You're suggesting that, to avoid killing animals we should genocide them instead.

They are already being "genocided" though. That's what happens when they slow down their milk or egg production, or reach slaughter weight. I'm suggesting we stop breeding them just to be killed. This results in less killing.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#674

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>because they lack X they are not worthy of consideration. It’s okay if they suffer. This is precisely the same logic that was used to justify slavery, for example. Wowzers, this is the most strawmanny characterisation of this view I think I've seen outside of scifi villains in B movies. I don't think the most charitable view is that species "deserve to suffer." It's that they have different capacities for suffering,…

Morality doesn't necessarily require deep intellectualism, I think. Much of the urgency in the vignettes of moral assessment isn't realistic, either. To say it simply, there is no proverbial burning building that requires us to farm animals in the way that we currently do. There is much about our practices that absolutely reflects an absence of consideration - shouldn't we be working to improve that? Saying that ther…

>Morality doesn't necessarily require deep intellectualism

I don't think that a statement about avoiding pitfalls of anti-intellectualism needs to be read as endorsing the opposite extreme, and I don't making that kind of assumption contributes to constructive conversation.

>To say it simply, there is no proverbial burning building that requires us to farm animals in the way that we currently do.

This response to the burning building example is fascinating and strange to me for a number of reasons. For one I started by providing a simple, clear cut, face value example of a case where doing good means considering how to prioritize wellbeing of different species. And as far as the example itself is concerned, you're just not engaging with it at all, and asking about a different example.

I mean, fair enough, we can get to your chosen example, but I already feel like we're a bit off kilter. If that were not already strange enough, you are saying "there is no proverbial burning building that requires us to farm animals in the way that we currently do." Well, maybe not in your chosen example, but in some other cases there is, quite literally as in the example I just mentioned. And to be clear, it's not just that I want my example to be seen because I think I'm special. It's that if someone says there is no such thing as that proverbial burning burning (e.g. no reason to treat species differently), and I show an example showing exactly that, it would seem important to engage with that example, not just to switch to consideration of other examples.

So I don't know what the disconnect is here. As to your example, well, sure. I think you are right, there is no proverbial burning building requiring harmful farming practices, and in my opinion those should be abolished, as you can argue there is no calculus in which they are neccessary Perfectly true, both in the literal sense, and as a matter of principle that it's a case where you don't have to think of it in terms of tradeoffs. But here again, I am wondering where this is coming from? Do you think "save humans from fire before mice" means ignore harmful farming practices? Where are you getting that?

>Saying that there is an inverse prioritization is not the matter at hand.

Again, very strange to me. I feel like my comments are anchored to reality by the fact that I try to stick closely to responding directly to specific things that someone else said. In this case, the commenter I was replying to was speaking generally about speciesm. I felt this was narrow, and that a more fair characterization about what drives this way of thinking is that it's how to make positive, morally good choices, in contrast to their one-sided view that only talked about it in the negative sense, in terms of inflicting harm.

For some reason, you have come in and decided that me responding directly to that is "not the matter at hand." But again, it very much was, because the subject was speciesm writ large, and I was speaking to that. So I just don't know what you are talking about, at least not without a bit more framing.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because without farming they'd live in the wild where they'd suffer from disease No. Without farming, farm animals just wouldn't exist to live a miserable life. Farmers are not doing them any favors by bringing them into the world.

Farm animals dont' live miserable lives. Animals in large scale, factory farms are mistreated, but they are still better off than in the wild. The majority of farms in the world are small-sale family farms were animals are treated at least as good as humans: > Five of every six farms in the world consist of less than two hectares, operate only around 12 percent of all agricultural land, and produce roughly 35 percent…

"If animals weren't factory farmed they'd just be wild" is a hilarious misrepresentation of the cause and effect of how farmed animals come to be, and I assume you know that and are being disingenuous.

"Vegan propaganda" ok Cheese Goddess. These animals not existing is preferable to the hell they endure on factory farms.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#676
post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lobsters & crabs are risky to eat unless they are very fresh (i.e. they have not been dead for too long). If you buy a dead lobster and then cook it, you have much less assurance about when it died hence the freshness than with a live lobster. If you buy a live lobster, how are you going to practically kill it before boiling it? Try to penetrate the hard shell to impale the brain using a layperson's skills and equipm…

>> Lobsters & crabs are risky to eat unless they are very fresh Maybe another good reason to...not eat them as much.

Also very insulting to cultures around the world that depend on this for their source of food and livelihood.

I'm from Maryland where watermen in the Chesapeake watershed have been crabbing for generations. The cost of fishing licences and proactive regulatory restrictions have also contributed to the sustainability of the fishery here.

As Marylander's most of us have grown up eating crabs from a young age.

When you prepare crabs you must cook them fresh, because dead crustacea release a chemical which immediately turns the meat. It also the easiest and most effective way to know you are eating safe crabs and not diseased or unhealthy crabs.

Please stop projecting your morals on to us. Militant vegetarianism is no different than religious fundamentalism. Your are projecting your morals onto the rest of us. Please stop.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#677
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, we know cattle, sheep, chickens and pigs are sentient yet we consume them. Why would we make an exception for octopods and shellfish?

We don't boil cattle, sheep, or chickens alive. They are killed quickly, by law.

you haven't seen Halal slaughter then I imagine...

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#678

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We don’t need these animals to survive. But it's my culture to consume them. My people have lived this way for thousands of years and I intend on continuing it and teaching my children our traditions. It connects me to our shared history and it connects me to the Earth. I am a natural being on this planet and part of the lifecycle. Consumption of meat is a part of that. Cooking meat over open fire with smoke and th…

Culture is not a reason to justify harm or violence. Just because we've always done something doesn't mean we always should, otherwise anything that falls under the umbrella of culture can't be critiqued, like genital mutilation, or child brides. Culture is important, but we can just as easily establish cultural practices that condemn violence and harm, rather than support them.

How about all the creatures that are killed by harvesting machines when wheat, corn, or soy is being harvested... I imagine probably the number of small creatures that are destroyed are probably on par with the number of crustacea harvested each year.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#679

I stab them in the head before boiling. I believe this is more humane.

Crabs/Lobsters don't have a singular central nervous system like humans, they actually have multiple "brains" spread throughout their bodies.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#680
post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a vegan how do you reconcile the thousands of insects and field animals that get culled during harvesting those lentils? I don't really have a problem with vegetarians but I do struggle to understand the lines they seemingly draw at random. Minimising harm should be a given for all but that doesn't rule out all meat eating that veganism somehow does.

Eating farm animals requires you to grow 9 times as many crops to feed them as if you had just eaten the crops directly, since only about 9% of the food they eat is converted into edible flesh. So even if you take this argument seriously, the insects and field animals are better off if you grow fewer crops, which you accomplish by directly eating the crops you grow, not feeding them to livestock.

>Eating farm animals requires you to grow 9 times as many crops to feed them as if you had just eaten the crops directly

This applies to industrial meat production. Do your thoughts change in regards to hunting/fishing which doesn't (necessarily*) rely on industrial crop agriculture?

(I realize a lot of species population numbers - especially deer in the Midwest - are inflated due to the availability of crops for them to feed upon. But there are other species where this isn't necessarily the case.)

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