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The World's Deadliest Thing

the-angry-chef.com

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Re: The World's Deadliest Thing

#141

Post by letitbeirie »

traceroute66 wrote: post #113
Stratoscope wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Photographers have a saying: The best camera is the one you have with you. I have a really nice camera with some excellent lenses, but my recent photos that I'm most proud of and enjoy the most were taken with my Galaxy Note 8, a several-year-old smartphone. Of course the kind of fresh fish you're talking about is far superior to the Costco bag of sockeye salmon I have in the freezer. But sometimes, it's getting near…

> American cheese on fish is gross American cheese is gross full stop. ;-) As is American chocolate.

My European friends: “Hersheys tastes like vomit.”

The same people: “So I know it’s Halloween over there and um… can you send us some Reese’s cups?”

Re: The World's Deadliest Thing

#142

Post by glenstein »

Helmut10001 wrote: post #47
Stratoscope wrote: post #35

Pop quiz! Do you ever buy frozen vacuum-sealed fish? The kind where each piece is sealed in its own plastic pouch? It is convenient and delicious. To me it can taste fresher than some "fresh" fish. One reason is that the sealed pouch keeps oxygen out. Have you wondered why it says "remove all packaging before defrosting"? And ignored that advice like I did for many years? After all, the fish seems to defrost just fin…

If you put your sealed fish in cold tap water, it will thaw in less than 15 Minutes. 15 Minutes is not enough for the bacteria to produce these toxins.

Right, that was going to be my question. Wouldn't botulism etc need a certain amount of time to grow? Is any normal use case of defrosting in a microwave long enough for that to happen? Is there a safe zone of X minutes, and then an unsafe zone of Y minutes where it gets dangerous?

Re: The World's Deadliest Thing

#143

Post by themaninthedark »

traceroute66 wrote: post #135
bluediscussy22 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Japan and some of this is a bit wrong. 1. All Tuna is frozen immediately after being caught on the boat - go to tsukiji (well now toyosu) at the tuna market. They are frozen and they taste better because of it. 2. There is no sushi / sashimi grade in Japan. High quality fish that you can eat safely is just the default 3. It's true that traditional sushi did not include salmon because of the parasites. If yo…

1. Noted, although I would say I didn't say all fish was not frozen. 2. That was kind of the point I was making. ;-) 3. I guess we must frequent different places, because the only places I've seen Salmon is Narita airport and at combinis. I don't go to 3 star Michelin, but I do admit I go to more traditional sushi restaurants when I want sushi in Japan. That said, even when I have had sushi at isakaya and small local…

There are many restaurants in Hokkaido that have the seafood version of oyakodon, Salmon and roe.

https://hokkaido-labo.com/en/otaru-seafood-donburi-14255

Re: The World's Deadliest Thing

#144

Post by wink »

ohmahjong wrote: post #107
wink wrote: post #101

> An alternative approach is to acidify the contents to a pH below 4.5 (although the effective upper limit is 4.2-4.3 in most production, just to be sure), and then apply heat up to about 91C to kill any bacteria, in a processed known as Pasteurisation. Although the spores remain intact at this temperature, the __low acidity__ means that they will not grow into bacteria or produce their deadly toxin This paragraph hi…

It might mean that it is acidic, but not strongly acidic? "Lightly acidic", maybe? A pH of 4.5 is less acidic than soda water.

"low as in not neutral" and not "low as in not a lot", yeah maybe, thanks.

Re: The World's Deadliest Thing

#145

Post by foobarian »

antognini wrote: post #38
Stratoscope wrote: post #35

Pop quiz! Do you ever buy frozen vacuum-sealed fish? The kind where each piece is sealed in its own plastic pouch? It is convenient and delicious. To me it can taste fresher than some "fresh" fish. One reason is that the sealed pouch keeps oxygen out. Have you wondered why it says "remove all packaging before defrosting"? And ignored that advice like I did for many years? After all, the fish seems to defrost just fin…

I have wondered about this, but even if botulinum or listeria are present, won't they grow very slowly in the refrigerator? I would think that defrosting for 12 hours or so at refrigerator temperatures would still be fairly safe. Or is the quantity that can be dangerous so minute that it doesn't matter?

I cold smoke meat so I need to be especially careful about this. The good news is, even though the spores are very hardy and can survive boiling at sea level atmospheric pressure, the botulism toxin (i.e. the chemical produced by the germs that does the actual damage) is easy to destroy by cooking over 85 degrees C.

Re: The World's Deadliest Thing

#146

Post by foobarian »

jandrese wrote: post #51
Uehreka wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps its one of those things where “95% of the time you’ll be fine, but be careful if you do it 20 times, because botulism only needs to happen once.”

The fact that most people don't know to remove the plastic and yet there are virtually no reported cases of people being poisoned by wrapped fish suggests that the danger is remote. It probably helps that if you fish get to the point where the bactera become active again it tends to smell bad and discolour.

I think if the fish was consumed raw there would be a lot more cases. But the toxin is destroyed by cooking even if the spores do grow.

Re: The World's Deadliest Thing

#147

Post by the_af »

traceroute66 wrote: post #111
raverbashing wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We hope so! Flash freezing kills parasites (Sure, it's not an issue if you cook it thoroughly before consumption, but still)

> We hope so! Flash freezing kills parasites It depends where you are. If you are in a Western country, then yes, "sashimi grade fish" equals "frozen". If you are in Japan, then no. Its all to do with the understanding of fish and its handling. In the West its all commoditised, quantity over quality. In Japan, they have a deeply rooted fish culture, a focus on quality and are obsessive over food hygiene. So in Japan…

> Personally, having visited Japan a number of times, I will not eat sushi or sashimi outside of Japan any more.

Most of us cannot travel to Japan every time we want to eat sushi, so that's simply not practical.

Re: The World's Deadliest Thing

#148

Post by the_af »

traceroute66 wrote: post #94
Stratoscope wrote: post #35

Pop quiz! Do you ever buy frozen vacuum-sealed fish? The kind where each piece is sealed in its own plastic pouch? It is convenient and delicious. To me it can taste fresher than some "fresh" fish. One reason is that the sealed pouch keeps oxygen out. Have you wondered why it says "remove all packaging before defrosting"? And ignored that advice like I did for many years? After all, the fish seems to defrost just fin…

> Do you ever buy frozen vacuum-sealed fish? The kind where each piece is sealed in its own plastic pouch? It is convenient and delicious. To me it can taste fresher than some "fresh" fish. Eeew. No. Call me old-fashioned but I believe in this thing called seasonality. I only buy fish that is in season, not farmed, and that is genuinely fresh from reputable suppliers, not supermarket "fresh". Nice clear bright eyes,…

> I only buy fish that is in season, not farmed, and that is genuinely fresh from reputable suppliers, not supermarket "fresh".

I think everyone wants this, but it's not always practical. Not everyone lives in a coastal area with access to fresh fish of the kind they would like to eat. If you do, more power to you! But if you don't...

Freezing fish also has the benefit that it kills parasites.

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