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Rust Moderation Team Resigns

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Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#701

Post by iudqnolq »

azeirah wrote: post #313
iudqnolq wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evan also wants to prevent people from making packages that solve certain types of problems so that he'll be able to make a better package in the future without needing to worry people might not want to switch because of backwards compatibility. I think that's entirely his right, but I'm skeptical it'll work.

Clojure and Common Lisp managed to have super stable community-built libraries. I'm not entirely sure what contributed to this (ie did this happen because of a stable core? Did this happen because lisps are somehow naturally conducive to stable extension?) but it's possible to have this happen without preventing community built-libraries.. :<

My impression is that Evan thinks a stable community built library that he doesn't like the feel of would ruin his language, so he'd rather have an unstable library he controls (because he doesn't have the bandwidth for everything). If this eventually leads to lots of stable great libraries written by Evan that would be nice, but until then it doesn't seem worth investing in. Here's what the author of a parsing library had to say

> Of all the changes in 0.19, this is the one that most hurt my code: I have parser combinator library, and used just two custom operators, for the very reasons that Evan points out in at the top.

> Now I learn that elm/parser can, and does, define two operators for parsing, for the same reasons my library had done so. There are indeed times when custom embedded languages with custom operators are worth the mental effort on the programming staff. Parsing is one of them, which Evan acknowledges, and indeed uses in elm/parser.

> However, it is not realistic to assume that elm/parser will become the only parsing package we ever need. For one, it only works on String. Parsing over byte arrays is quite common, (and what mine did). Even if elm/parse had been parameterized on the stream type - there are still differing implementation and functionality tradeoffs in parsers (backtracking, error tracking, error recovery, etc..) that make different parser libraries useful even they support the same stream type.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#702

Post by magicalhippo »

zemo wrote: post #377
azth wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a difference between how very bold Linus was with his insults to today's "cocs" which makes people walk on eggshells being too afraid to say or insinuate something that may be perceived as "incorrect".

Here is the Rust code of conduct: https://www.rust-lang.org/policies/code-of-conduct Can you provide an example of something in the code of conduct that you think makes people walk on eggshells?

From the CoC:

> Please be kind and courteous. There’s no need to be mean or rude.

> Even if you feel you were misinterpreted or unfairly accused, chances are good there was something you could’ve communicated better — remember that it’s your responsibility to make your fellow Rustaceans comfortable.

Us Norwegians are well known for coming across as rude. And especially since being mean or rude is a subjective thing, I feel it's highly likely I could come across as unintentionally rude to others. And according to that it's my fault if I do.

I definitely think twice before interacting with a community that has a CoC like that, because I don't need such drama in my life.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#703

Post by GolDDranks »

abernard1 wrote: post #291
pyrale wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moderating a community is not meant to entertain outsiders, but to prevent escalation within the community. No offense, but what do you expect to be able to contribute to this situation as an outsider? Would your contribution to the community be improved by additional information?

> No offense, but what do you expect to be able to contribute to this situation as an outsider? Who are the "insiders" here? A couple dozen people? Rust is supposed to cater to their user base, not the dramas of a few people who need attention and something to do with their life.

They say in the post that they are open for Rust team members to discuss this. So the "insiders" would be Rust team members, I think there would be some hundreds of people. (There are multiple Rust teams, not just Core and Moderation.) Together, they also would have considerable power over the Core team, as the teams have some power in a do-o-cracy sense of the word.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#704

Post by paulgdp »

chias wrote: post #606
rust-throwaway1 wrote: post #548

I'm inclined to believe the rust moderation team even though they haven't disclosed any specifics. The way the core team exercises absolute authority in spite of community complaints has always rubbed me the wrong way. They present a facade of caring while crushing dissent. I do not recognize most of the core team these days, but Steve Klabnik and Ashley Williams stand out as likely culprits. I have personally submit…

For what it's worth, Andrew Gallant ("BurntSushi", the author of that post) is probably the voice I most trust on the Internet today. For a long time now, he has demonstrated that he is extremely judicious, level-headed, and well-thought-out on any position I've ever seen him take. People are not always polite / nice to him, and he unfailingly responds kindly and honestly with a level of effort that is truly amazing.…

Having read a great deal from him, I just want to confirm everything said about Andrew Gallant, and I absolutely trust him too!

This blog post is a great testament to his human skills: https://blog.burntsushi.net/foss/

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#705

Post by staticassertion »

politician wrote: post #682
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's possible that there were CoC violations that they were not able to moderate, that the actions available to them were limited (e.g., they would have initiated a ban but they were not able to ban a core team member), that a core team member intervened to prevent effective moderation, or that the core team prevented the mod team from being able to access official core team channels in order to moderate. It's not…

This kind of drama is already a defining feature of the Rust community. They can’t go 6 months without some kind of incident like this. It would be a positive if they could have a BDFL or corporate sponsorship to structure the community going forward because it doesn’t seem like the current community approach really works in practice. I realize that’s probably not possible at this point though.. unless maybe Microsof…

Having been a part of the community since a bit before 1.0, no this does not happen every 6 months.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#707

Post by m0zg »

They'd do well providing some root causes for this blowout. "Core team won't take CoC" is a bit of a cop-out. If the conduct is legal, IMO people who contribute most of the code should have more weight when deciding moderation related issues (and people who contribute none should have no say at all).

Show me the transgressions that would require CoC to be enforced and then I'd be more sympathetic. As presented, this seems like political bullshit, and their efforts would be better spent overhauling Rust's unergonomic error handling.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#708

Post by jmull »

mjburgess wrote: post #86

Absent some form of democracy, what does it mean for a leadership to be "accountable"? Power extends from whoever has the authority to hold others to account. So this just reads like a power-grab from the moderation team. What would it mean for them to have the power to hold the core team to account? That they could sack people from it? The goals of the project are set by the core team; not by a moderation team enfor…

> The goals of the project are set by the core team; not by a moderation team enforcing some abitrary CoC.

It's dishonest to publish a CoC that -- silently -- doesn't apply to those with power. Why does that matter?

Don't forget that a language with a strong core team but no community of users, contributors, documenters, enthusiasts, etc., is hardly more than nothing -- people making specifications that aren't implemented and if implemented, not used.

The purpose of a CoC is to set ground rules to allow the community around the language -- the community that must exist for the language to have any real value or purpose -- to grow as strong as possible.

You're granting the core team all the power in rust, but they are kings of very little if people don't chose to adopt rust.

Some people or companies may choose to invest -- or not invest -- in rust based at least partially on the code of conduct.

Other people may choose to invest -- or not invest -- in rust based at least partially on their confidence in the long-term capability of the core team. Does "accountable to no one" instill that confidence?

Also: you really are misunderstanding what the mod team did here. Resigning is a single-shot ploy. There's literally nothing left that they can do. Whether this is a "bad look" for them is entirely irrelevant.

At this point the rust core team has to decide if they would prefer to more forward with or without a code of conduct, and whether they will be honest about it or not.

The rest of us can watch and decide if/how we'd like to continue to participate with rust. Those making long term plans should watch especially carefully.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#709

Post by [deleted] »

GrayShade wrote: post #695
nabakin wrote: post #678

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Steve was saying that Amazon is responsible for not letting Ashley remain interim chair? I don't remember him saying that either.

I'm not sure (nor do I care) by what mechanism, but yes: https://twitter.com/steveklabnik/status/1437441662998007809 I also seem to have confused the executive director and chair positions. She was the ED.

[deleted]

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#710

Post by deanCommie »

the_duke wrote: post #59

I have used Rust for years, but I never bothered with looking into the governance structure. How are team members selected? Who has authority to kick someone off a team? How are team leads selected? Who can remove team leads? Is it the core team? If so, who picks the core team? I can't find anything online, except this very bare-bones WIP stub. [1] This seems to be a glaring and surprising oversight. Especially at th…

Since Steve is on the core team, this certainly puts "I refuse to let Amazon define Rust" in a whole new light.

Maybe the problem wasn't Amazon, and HN shouldn't have jumped to conclusions so quickly...

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