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Apple has a new work-from-home policy, but it’s still not what employees want

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Re: Apple has a new work-from-home policy, but it’s still not what employees want

#81

Post by eganist »

pkorzeniewski wrote: post #77
throwaheyy wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost no one? Based on what? Most people where I work are not going in to the office every day, but it cannot be inferred that it is because they don’t want to. The thought of permanent WFH, with your job occupying a corner of your 600 sq ft apartment in perpetuity, is demoralising. Just having the option of a change of scenery, even if one doesn’t make use of it every day or even once in a given week, makes a huge…

Based on common sense - how many people want to waste 1 or 2 hours each day on commute when they could spend it better in so many ways? Or maybe I'm out of touch and people don't value their free time as much as I thought..

> Based on common sense - how many people want to waste 1 or 2 hours each day on commute when they could spend it better in so many ways?

like sleep

Re: Apple has a new work-from-home policy, but it’s still not what employees want

#82

Post by eganist »

zwkrt wrote: post #80
pkorzeniewski wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on common sense - how many people want to waste 1 or 2 hours each day on commute when they could spend it better in so many ways? Or maybe I'm out of touch and people don't value their free time as much as I thought..

Again, this is the thought of people with nice detached houses in the suburbs. Commuting doesn't have to be the horrible pain some people make it out to be. When working for Amazon, I always lived within a 30 minute walk of the office. The walk through Seattle was always beautiful and I looked forward to it each day. I would get a coffee at the same cafe and had relationships with people there. Some days I would leav…

> WFH reality means that the most pleasant part of my day is destroyed. It takes all the joy of living in the city away.

Then don't wfh if your company gives you the option to do one or the other.

Companies that today mandate one mode or the other (or some odd combination) are losing the potential value the ill-affected team can bring to the table.

WFH for those who'd like to, WFO for those who don't.

People working from the office saying "well I can't be as effective if so few people are coming into the office" are basically saying that their productivity needs outweigh the productivity needs of others.

Re: Apple has a new work-from-home policy, but it’s still not what employees want

#83

Post by logicalmonster »

treesknees wrote: post #63
pkorzeniewski wrote: post #8

It's funny how these big companies try so hard to make their office space as "cool" as possible and think employees enjoy them but the moment they are given the choice to work remotely almost nobody wants to go back to office, at least not on a daily basis..

One thing that bothered me when I interviewed at Google is how much they talked up the perks. Everything from free shuttle service to free food, to all of these "extracurricular" perks like movies, laundry/drycleaning, hair cuts, etc. The campus felt designed to suck more work hours out of you. If I go play ping pong for an hour, do I now owe that hour to the company later? If I'm working past 5, will I be inclined t…

I can understand Silicon Valley deciding to offer these services.

The "free services" are designed to keep you at your desk working longer. You don't need to rush out and waste part of the day if you have an intense craving for a certain type of food or need to get a haircut or do laundry.

And a lot of great developers are young, fresh out of university, and the only thing they know in life is either having parents or a campus provide everything they need in life and living a semi-managed existence. Offering everything to developers is just a natural extension of that lifestyle.

But I'd respect a company far more that just paid you over the market rate, didn't shell out as a company for extra services, and let you use your own money to decide what services you needed to manage your own life.

As far as the office toys go (video games, pool tables, etc) there are very few times I've seen them used in any office outside of a planned holiday or office party. That said, I like some of that stuff as a decoration even if it's rarely used. It reminds me that there's more to life than just working.

Re: Apple has a new work-from-home policy, but it’s still not what employees want

#84

Post by my_usernam3 »

jnwatson wrote: post #49
floatingatoll wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I only prefer working remotely as an alternative to an office with open-air seating. Give me an office with a window and a door, and I would quite willingly work from an office. My employer has, for over a decade, refused to build anything but open-air seating. So everything thinks I prefer to work remotely, because their own feelings taint their perceptions of my actions, but they don't ask my actual motivations and…

In my 23 year career, I’ve gone from having my own office room, to office room with a nice view, to shared with 1 other person, to a cubicle, then a bullpen. We’re not going in the right direction. If I wasn’t working remote, I’d have a worse office environment than when I was a 16-year-old kid doing IT for a mom-and-pop.

I actually did that in a matter of 4 years. Was rather incredible in hindsight.

First part time internship had an office with a door and my freaking name on the front.

Second internship had a nice private high walled cubicle.

That internship turned into a full time job, and they moved us into a large 4 person area's where each screen faced a different direction, and the walls weren't as high.

Finally after two years they moved us into the open office, all next to each-other, and gave us the shittiest beats headphones $100 could buy. Audio quality aside, they squeezed the head into a migraine. Comically bad.

Re: Apple has a new work-from-home policy, but it’s still not what employees want

#85

Post by garyrichardson »

pkorzeniewski wrote: post #77
throwaheyy wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost no one? Based on what? Most people where I work are not going in to the office every day, but it cannot be inferred that it is because they don’t want to. The thought of permanent WFH, with your job occupying a corner of your 600 sq ft apartment in perpetuity, is demoralising. Just having the option of a change of scenery, even if one doesn’t make use of it every day or even once in a given week, makes a huge…

Based on common sense - how many people want to waste 1 or 2 hours each day on commute when they could spend it better in so many ways? Or maybe I'm out of touch and people don't value their free time as much as I thought..

I'm sure there is a complex Venn diagram to be had here. Anyone making blanket statements about wants/efficiency/etc is a fool.

I have an hour commute each way if I want to go in and a dedicated 12x12 office bathed in natural light. There's no possible way a company office could come close to the productivity and comfort I have here, even on video calls.

Another chunk of the population lives in apartments not much bigger than my personal office and have a 10 minute walking commute into an office. If I were in that situation I'd maybe enjoy going into an office to do work more (but I probably would never choose to put myself into that specific living scenario).

There is likely everything in between those extremes. You also need to question intro/extro personalities, how much and what type of collaboration is part of the job, etc.

We used to live in a world where there was only one option: come into the office where the paper work lived. Now we have a choice. Let's take maximum advantage of that.

Re: Apple has a new work-from-home policy, but it’s still not what employees want

#86

Post by shagie »

munificent wrote: post #78
treesknees wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing that bothered me when I interviewed at Google is how much they talked up the perks. Everything from free shuttle service to free food, to all of these "extracurricular" perks like movies, laundry/drycleaning, hair cuts, etc. The campus felt designed to suck more work hours out of you. If I go play ping pong for an hour, do I now owe that hour to the company later? If I'm working past 5, will I be inclined t…

Googler here. I can speak to my experience, but others have their own. > The campus felt designed to suck more work hours out of you. Another way to describe it is that the campus is designed to suck more employees away from the competition. If you assume the existence of an employee as a given, then the only reason for a perk must be to extract more labor from that employee. But that's not how Google is looking at i…

> Another way to describe it is that the campus is designed to suck more employees away from the competition. If you assume the existence of an employee as a given, then the only reason for a perk must be to extract more labor from that employee.

There are so many stories out there of people getting a "side gig" while working remote. The "working at two companies at once" is a real concern for tech companies - where IP assignment can create legal nightmares.

One of the simplest ways to prevent this is to make it not feasible for a 2nd job to be held. If you're in the office for 8h for 3 days a week, it is not practical to be able to hold a second job at the same time.

For companies with larger or more secretive initiatives and products these ideas are likely more reasonable.

The tech companies know that they've got people who are "coasters" who are doing the minimum and collecting a pay check - they don't want to continue to enable to them to have multiple jobs that they're coasting in.

Re: Apple has a new work-from-home policy, but it’s still not what employees want

#87

Post by Foofoobar12345 »

Long term, I'd expect non-remote companies to outperform remote-only companies. On-site work leads to more chance encounters, more creativity, in addition to tighter feedback loops.

I'm the founder of a remote-only startup (from before covid, 8+ years), and every once in a few months, we get together for a couple weeks to do some collaborative work, and the teams productivity is an order of magnitude higher, even though we don't overwork. Initially I attributed this to the different state of mind that we bring in those two weeks, but eventually I realized in a well functioning team, excitement just rubs of each other.

We'll continue being remote as a lifestyle choice, but I firmly believe that if we were together in the same room, and spent even half the time at work, we'd be more productive.

Additionally I believe remote is better suited for senior devs, with 10+ years of experience and generally have their lives together. I sincerely believe that juniors, especially those just out of college will hurt their trajectory, as they'll loose the ability to observe and learn the behavior of seniors and adopt mentors. Also some of my closest friends today are those I've met at work in my first job, and have been thorough the "trenches" together with.

Ymmv.

Re: Apple has a new work-from-home policy, but it’s still not what employees want

#88

Post by hbn »

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #79
nebula8804 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speak for yourself. After messing with Windows 11 last night, I cannot fathom how people tolerate that trash. Went back to my M1 Mac.

Funny thing is, I'm the opposite after getting a Mac for work at my current job. You can't disable pointer acceleration via the Mouse configuration control panel. You have to use some terminal command. Scroll wheel acceleration can't be disabled at all without using 3rd party software. The Home/End should bring the cursor to the beginning/end of the current line, not the beginning/end of the current document. Disappe…

> The Home/End should bring the cursor to the beginning/end of the current line, not the beginning/end of the current document.

Cmd + left/right arrow

> And why is there not even an option to ungroup my windows in the Dock? If I have 3 Chrome windows, I want 3 Chrome icons so I can switch between them more quickly. Windows groups by default, but there's at least an option to ungroup them.

Cmd+` to jump between Windows of the currently active application

Re: Apple has a new work-from-home policy, but it’s still not what employees want

#89

Post by 908B64B197 »

shagie wrote: post #86
munificent wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Googler here. I can speak to my experience, but others have their own. > The campus felt designed to suck more work hours out of you. Another way to describe it is that the campus is designed to suck more employees away from the competition. If you assume the existence of an employee as a given, then the only reason for a perk must be to extract more labor from that employee. But that's not how Google is looking at i…

> Another way to describe it is that the campus is designed to suck more employees away from the competition. If you assume the existence of an employee as a given, then the only reason for a perk must be to extract more labor from that employee. There are so many stories out there of people getting a "side gig" while working remote. The "working at two companies at once" is a real concern for tech companies - where…

> There are so many stories out there of people getting a "side gig" while working remote.

Sounds like the job simply isn't attractive enough. Why would I waste time as a second job when helping my employer will result in a stock price increase that I'll make capital gain on?

Re: Apple has a new work-from-home policy, but it’s still not what employees want

#90

Post by 908B64B197 »

treesknees wrote: post #63
pkorzeniewski wrote: post #8

It's funny how these big companies try so hard to make their office space as "cool" as possible and think employees enjoy them but the moment they are given the choice to work remotely almost nobody wants to go back to office, at least not on a daily basis..

One thing that bothered me when I interviewed at Google is how much they talked up the perks. Everything from free shuttle service to free food, to all of these "extracurricular" perks like movies, laundry/drycleaning, hair cuts, etc. The campus felt designed to suck more work hours out of you. If I go play ping pong for an hour, do I now owe that hour to the company later? If I'm working past 5, will I be inclined t…

> The campus felt designed to suck more work hours out of you.

Yes! That's the point. If you think there are 10x devs out there and that your company is capable of attracting them, then paying extra to remove friction to get a little bit of extra time out of them is worth more than an ever increasing headcount with regular devs.

> If I go play ping pong for an hour, do I now owe that hour to the company later?

No. Engineering isn't about hours, it's about results. If playing an hour of ping pong means the next 3 hours will be more productive for the players and they will be more creative it's an investment. I've seen tough bugs get solved by engineers going on a walk when they were absolutely stuck.

> My current employer offers a few perks. We have pool tables, video games, etc. But you'll pretty much never find people using them because they're busy working. Seems like mostly a recruiting tool and little more. That's why I'm perfectly fine staying home and not utilizing the cool office space. I didn't use that stuff anyway.

A company won't just become Google by buying beanbag chairs and getting a ping pong table. That's cargo culting [0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult

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