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Apple has a new work-from-home policy, but it’s still not what employees want

arstechnica.com

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Re: Apple has a new work-from-home policy, but it’s still not what employees want

#51

Post by throwaway_0054 »

Here’s something I don’t understand:

Companies across the board the board seem to think they have every right to decide how to structure their employees lives. And almost universally they make a big show about listening to their employees and then afterwards show they don’t care one whit by demonstrating through their actions they either didn’t listen or don’t care. Then they rub salt in the wound with their carefully crafted corporate-speak press releases.

For any industry based on knowledge work, this behavior is just about as unprofessional as one can be; it’s insulting to their workforce and breeds malcontent.

On the other hand you have workplaces where honesty is both valued and respected on each side of the employer/employee divide. I suspect we hear little about such companies, and they keep on running.

When might the big dishonest companies realize the dishonesty is at the core of not just the WFH problem, but nearly all of the problems they face? Is it even possible?

Re: Apple has a new work-from-home policy, but it’s still not what employees want

#52

Post by aaroninsf »

Kranar wrote: post #37
pkorzeniewski wrote: post #8

It's funny how these big companies try so hard to make their office space as "cool" as possible and think employees enjoy them but the moment they are given the choice to work remotely almost nobody wants to go back to office, at least not on a daily basis..

I entirely disagree with your assessment. From what I know, most Apple employees want to go back to the office and are happy to do so. While a non-negligible minority would prefer to work from home, that's a far cry from claiming almost no one wants to go back to the office.

Exact opposite in my circles, possibly because we inhabit different demographics.

Mine: parents with kids. Not one wants to return to wasting hours on commute, which is particularly egregious at Apple because many are not allowed to work on the bus because of the culture of paranoia and disclosure.

Re: Apple has a new work-from-home policy, but it’s still not what employees want

#53

Post by izzydata »

I work for a tech company in the midwest with about 5000 employees at the particular office I am at and we are currently in a state where you can either work from home or go to the office. I'd wager about ~10% of people go to the office and that includes people that have jobs that absolutely require the tools or equipment at the office.

I should mention that the original plan was also this 2-3 days a week at the office, but has been put on hold indefinitely until something changes.

Re: Apple has a new work-from-home policy, but it’s still not what employees want

#54

Post by VLM »

throwaheyy wrote: post #44
pkorzeniewski wrote: post #8

It's funny how these big companies try so hard to make their office space as "cool" as possible and think employees enjoy them but the moment they are given the choice to work remotely almost nobody wants to go back to office, at least not on a daily basis..

Almost no one? Based on what? Most people where I work are not going in to the office every day, but it cannot be inferred that it is because they don’t want to. The thought of permanent WFH, with your job occupying a corner of your 600 sq ft apartment in perpetuity, is demoralising. Just having the option of a change of scenery, even if one doesn’t make use of it every day or even once in a given week, makes a huge…

My house is vastly nicer than any workplace I've ever visited. Admittedly I was never a servant at a castle or museum or something cool like that.

There is some confusion between covid lockdown vs WFH. I live in a recreational state with great phone coverage and wifi everywhere, I must spend at least half my time at some comfy park or a table outdoors at a coffee shop or something similar. Certainly I spend a lot of working hours in my nice back yard.

The impression I've gotten is people are not getting locked down and chained to a desk for WFH, just get the work done, doesn't matter if I'm reading engineering datasheets at the local bar (before drinking...) or the tables at the local park, etc.

Re: Apple has a new work-from-home policy, but it’s still not what employees want

#55

Post by anon2020dot00 »

spoonjim wrote: post #20

“What employees want” isn’t really relevant. I’m sure employees also want 10x the salary. What matters is 1) can they use their brand, their balance sheet, their luxury office, or other parameters to maintain the workforce of the size and skills required to conduct their business, or 2) is in-person so much more effective than remote that they can compete in the market with fewer or less-skilled on-site workers becau…

How is "what employees want" not relevant?

"What employees want" directly influences employee retention and hiring. In a hypothetical scenario, if an employee wants full remote work but Apple is not offering it but Google is then that then employee is going to go to Google to the detriment of Apple.

Re: Apple has a new work-from-home policy, but it’s still not what employees want

#56

Post by sosborn »

throwaheyy wrote: post #44
pkorzeniewski wrote: post #8

It's funny how these big companies try so hard to make their office space as "cool" as possible and think employees enjoy them but the moment they are given the choice to work remotely almost nobody wants to go back to office, at least not on a daily basis..

Almost no one? Based on what? Most people where I work are not going in to the office every day, but it cannot be inferred that it is because they don’t want to. The thought of permanent WFH, with your job occupying a corner of your 600 sq ft apartment in perpetuity, is demoralising. Just having the option of a change of scenery, even if one doesn’t make use of it every day or even once in a given week, makes a huge…

> Just having the option of a change of scenery, even if one doesn’t make use of it every day or even once in a given week, makes a huge difference.

This, to me, is the crux of the matter. I can accept that there are days when I'm needed in the office, but for the vast majority of days when I'm not, having the ability to decide has incredible benefits for me, and the company doesn't miss out on anything.

Re: Apple has a new work-from-home policy, but it’s still not what employees want

#57

Post by nice_byte »

I'd be fine with such policy. I don't want to ever work remote again. I used to think working from home would be more productive, but found it to be the exact opposite, between an endless supply of distractions, lack of face-to-face communication, overall drudgery of being stuck in your home all day, and having to think about meals (which is a surprisingly annoying change if you're used to just getting whatever's in the nearest cafeteria).

Re: Apple has a new work-from-home policy, but it’s still not what employees want

#58

Post by aaroninsf »

ITT: lots of people without kids, who appear to have a very very different relationship to in-office than anyone in my own circles, who do have kids.

No one I know with kids wants to give up flexible WFH. Not one.

No mystery why. Every minute commuting is a minute away from your already extremely limited family time. Every day without flexibility is a PITA wrt any of the myriad quiet duties parents have to move their kids around all day, which have now returned with their own vengeance because of the pandemic suppression of carpooling and public transit as viable options for many, particularly those with kids under 12, none of whom are yet fully protected, and won't be for weeks.

Re: Apple has a new work-from-home policy, but it’s still not what employees want

#59

Post by go_blue_13 »

aaroninsf wrote: post #52
Kranar wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I entirely disagree with your assessment. From what I know, most Apple employees want to go back to the office and are happy to do so. While a non-negligible minority would prefer to work from home, that's a far cry from claiming almost no one wants to go back to the office.

Exact opposite in my circles, possibly because we inhabit different demographics. Mine: parents with kids. Not one wants to return to wasting hours on commute, which is particularly egregious at Apple because many are not allowed to work on the bus because of the culture of paranoia and disclosure.

Same story in my circle, which is all young singeltons. Nobody wants to have to commute down to Cupertino multiple times per week

Re: Apple has a new work-from-home policy, but it’s still not what employees want

#60

Post by shagie »

Eric_WVGG wrote: post #45
floatingatoll wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I only prefer working remotely as an alternative to an office with open-air seating. Give me an office with a window and a door, and I would quite willingly work from an office. My employer has, for over a decade, refused to build anything but open-air seating. So everything thinks I prefer to work remotely, because their own feelings taint their perceptions of my actions, but they don't ask my actual motivations and…

I'm reminded of an old bit by Joel Spolsky of Stack Overflow, where he outlines — in extreme detail — his designs for the old Fog Creek offices. It's very clear that he put more thought into these designs than the work that most interior architects I've encountered have bothered to perform. https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2003/09/24/bionic-office/ https://stackoverflow.blog/2015/01/16/why-we-still-believe-i... (remark…

If you ever hunt up a copy of A Pattern Language by Christopher Alexander, Sara Ishikawa, and Mary Silverstein (the book that inspired Design Patterns: Elements of Reusable Object-Oriented Software) it is an interesting read.

Patterns 146, 151, and 152 get into the design of the office.

For example, 146 - Flexible Office - https://books.google.com/books?id=FTpxDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA690&lpg=...

It is a fascinating book to read (and you don't need to consume it all at once). There are things in there that helped me understand why my house (it had its stairs reversed in the 1920s) has a flow to it that leads to certain rooms getting less use than they were designed for - the staircase from the 2nd floor living space now goes to the back door (rather than the center of the house) which means 2nd floor to garage is an easy transition while 2nd floor to front door is a harder one. That in turn makes it more natural (for this design of the house) to go out the garage door and along the sidewalk past light commercial when going down town than out the front door and past neighbors through the residential roads.

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