Live data from Hacker News

Rust Moderation Team Resigns

github.com

541–550 of 912 posts

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#541
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With most OSS projects nowadays I don't think you have to use a mailing list or anything that would have an MOTD in order to contribute. Contributions nowadays are often done entirely through the repository, so it makes sense to put in them the things that people contemplating contribution should be cognizant of. Repositories for most projects are more project repositories than mere code repositories.

> Repositories for most projects are more project repositories than mere code repositories. Indeed, but for some reason it still feels odd. I've acknowledged I'm getting old, right? ;-) Also, there is some rational justification to my feeling. It used to be that you might kick-ban someone from a channel or /dev/null their mailing list contributions. But if they made a technically meritorious merge request via SCM the…

> Indeed, but for some reason it still feels odd.

I think putting the CoC into the repo is mainly to clarify that it applies to discussions on the issue tracker. If GitHub didn't also do issue tracking and other things where actual discussions occur, there would probably be fewer CoCs in repos.

> Measured tolerance and forgiveness are both important virtues

There are a small number of extremely toxic people in positions of power who will abuse "forgiveness" in order to deliberately commit an unending series of abuses on a string of people. People kept "forgiving" Harvey Weinstein for decades. The line between tolerance and enabling can get hard to distinguish, especially when someone has enough power to control the narrative.

So a community must be aware that its tolerance mechanisms can themselves be maliciously abused. But the alternative—intolerance and being unwilling to forgive—ends up harming the larger number of people who are fallible, do hurtful things, but can be remediated. It gives less room for people to be human.

Finding the balance between these opposing forces is hard. A maximally efficient and happy community is one of complete trust between all participants. But that is also the definition of a maximally vulnerable and exploitable one.

> But, also, I've always considered OSS a hobby scene rather than a business model or resume booster.

That line got really blurry when open source ate the world and many large tech companies now work heavily with open source. You have many employees (like myself) who work on open source projects full time at work. And you have others who work on open source because it helps them find employment at companies that use that code.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#542
post #504
post #364

This is a real shame. From the early days of Rust (pre-2018?) I built up this mental picture of it having a considerably better run and governed community, with people putting time into thinking about how a community should work rather than it being something that's ignored because "we're here to write code and managing a product is a waste of time". I lost touch (the last video I watched which might be the one that…

This person? https://archive.fo/f10KK

Ew. At the beginning I was expecting it to be somewhat interpretive, but some of those statements are indefensible to me, and there's quite a lot.

Some might attempt to explain it away as Twitter's model and ecosystem encouraging ill considered statements, but the adult response to that is to take more care in what you say or stop using the medium that encourages you to say horrible things you regret.

Edit: I will acknowledge the data I was looking at is a few years old, and I don't know if the person in question has since recanted on those views. I believe people change and should be given the chance to leave their past misdeeds behind, and I have no knowledge one way or the other if that happened here, and that would be important to know to have an informed opinion.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then don’t make a whole big public announcement about it. As someone from the outside this just reads like a post specifically to generate drama and attention but not giving details as to direct it at anyone in particular.

Not sure that I'd call a PR a "whole big public announcement". Sure, it wound up here, but I don't think you can blame that on the mod team.

They also posted the resignation on the Rust subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/qzme1z/moderation_tea...

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely, yes. A growing community needs healthy management in order to avoid reputational damage to the core language. There's no shortage of guidance to "stay away from X tech because the community is toxic and non-serious"

in my short experience in software (7 years), it almost feels like there is more drama when a CoC mod team is involved. without a mod team, you will still boot trolls or resolve a dispute. I think it's better to have a judge who can step in and resolve a situation than proactive police when it comes to OSS moderation.

in general, i believe in the effectiveness of running communities via benevolent dictatorship. a group that has good reputation among the rest of the members, gets to decide how disputes are resolved / who gets silenced, etc., without having to justify themselves against a byzantine set of rules. for many open source projects that hope to be used by the wider world, this governance model is unacceptable though.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#545

"we're resigning, but not saying why; just believe us anyway". Really?

What do you think a moderation team ought to do in a situation where code-of-conduct violations are happening and they can't do anything about it? To stay and not say anything publicly would leave outsiders with the impression that everything is fine and that whatever is happening has their personal stamp of approval. There may be valid reasons they don't feel at liberty to name the parties and say what's going on.

To leave an organization might be their only recourse. Sometimes doing the right thing is necessary even when the outside public is unable to independently confirm that one is doing the right thing.

We have no idea whether the mod team resigning was the best choice, but I'm willing to entertain the possibility that it was. And if they are resigning due to a real problem, then that problem is much more likely to be addressed and resolved by the new moderation team now that the community knows that an issue exists.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#546
post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the question is rather- what is a "fuck up" to them? And to that- who knows? Certainly the point of a CoC is supposed to be to codify this, but I believe experience shows that its interpretation tends to be expansive, when the wording is not already expansive to begin with. At the end of the day, events like Curtis Yarvin, a person who has never harmed a fly, almost getting banned from Lambdaconf over "safety"…

I wasn't familiar with Curtis Yarvin, but in looking him up, you can't be serious, right? >Yarvin's online writings, many under his pseudonym Mencius Moldbug, convey blatantly racist views. He expresses the belief that white people are genetically endowed with higher IQs than black people. He has suggested race may determine whether individuals are better suited for slavery, and his writing has been interpreted as su…

I am completely serious.

Curtis Yarvin is a bellwether - the sort of person that any group that starts excluding people for ideological disagreements, would probably exclude first precisely because his position is so problematic. So any group that accepts his technical contribution can obviously be trusted to tolerate any less-severe ideological disagreement. Conversely, any group that doesn't, especially when they have to make up nonexistent concerns to do it because their rules didn't cover this "obvious" reason to kick someone out and couldn't be hastily adjusted, must be viewed with caution.

I personally don't hold any beliefs nearly as objectionable as that. But I do hold objectionable beliefs - as I believe any halfway interesting person does. And those who don't, probably will eventually. Just stand by your convictions and give it time.

See also LambdaConf's conclusion on why they should allow him to participate anyway: https://degoes.net/articles/lambdaconf-inclusion I agree with this article fully.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#547
post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rich Hickey specifically said that some Lisp groups were extraordinarily toxic, and it's something he wanted to avoid in Clojure. (I think it was in his HOPL talk). Also, I would say that help-bash@ and the bash IRC channel are pretty toxic. By "toxic" I mean that there's just a general culture of negativity, insults, hazing, and assuming the worst. There's definitely a thing where computer nerds try to one-up each o…

> Honestly it's funny to me that people think HN is toxic, because it's not even close to those forums in my mind. (well maybe that's because I almost never read the politics threads on HN, but still) I strongly agree. I was reading the archive of an early infosec group the other day, the culture was extremely hostile. 70% of the posts were insightful technical discussions, the remaining 30% was full of personal atta…

I think what people sometimes mean when they say "HN is toxic", is raging incompetence paraded with confidence (and getting upvoted), which I've seen many a time here. Similar to reddit.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#548
I'm inclined to believe the rust moderation team even though they haven't disclosed any specifics. The way the core team exercises absolute authority in spite of community complaints has always rubbed me the wrong way. They present a facade of caring while crushing dissent.

I do not recognize most of the core team these days, but Steve Klabnik and Ashley Williams stand out as likely culprits. I have personally submitted an email with the Rust moderation team to complain about Klabnik (and also mod-team member Andrew Gallant) and their abrasive behavior on reddit. Several months later I received a response stating they agreed that Klabnik went over the line and that they would warn him. Meanwhile Ashley "kill all men" Williams has an extremely lengthy reputation for her behavior in open source[1]. When it was announced she was joining the rust community team, there was a large push back from the community but the reddit/discourse mods censored everything[2][3] and the core team chose to let Williams join despite the complaints about her history of racism, sexism, and antagonism.

[1]: https://archive.fo/f10KK

[2]: https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/7nx3cm/announcement_a... (https://archive.fo/ISXJF)

[3]: https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/announcement-ashley-willia... (https://archive.fo/9yW9I)

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Someone who chooses to get offended about what others write or say" would be my working definition. I don't think being offended is a reasonable thing to be, generally.

Is getting offended about someone insulting you or who starts discussions which make people angry unreasonable? I'm genuinely curious, maybe I misunderstand what it means to be offended.

Yes. People make themselves angry, people choose to take offense. The reasonable thing to do is not allow yourself to be provoked to upset or anger by someone else's communication. People you disagree with are easy to ignore, even if you find their opinions loathsome.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#550
post #518

Curious, why did a project of programming language hire a multi-person moderation team in the first place? That's the OSS version of HR? Or is it equivalent to a team of diversity and inclusion?

People have made fun of Linux having Linus as the dictator on top, but it seems like that model might be the best for long term project success...

Right, and Ruby has had Matz, Python had Guido and to a certain degree PHP had Rasmus. As soon as you have more than one captain in the ship, politics and drama seems unavoidable.
Post reply on HN