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Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

lse.ac.uk

581–590 of 704 posts

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like to eat crab and lobster, but I never understood how anyone could boil one of them alive - even if it hasn't (or hadn't) been 100% proven they can feel pain, it seems such a horrible, horrible thing to do! I'm not any kind of animal rights activist, but it makes me feel upset just thinking about it :shudder:

The theory I hear from people who do it is that the animals die instantly in thermal shock. Would be great if someone in the know could comment; I'm certainly not endorsing this view!

I have boiled a lot of lobster and crab live. In my experience, they stop twitching in 5 seconds or so. I find this method faster more humane than chopping through their carapace and rooting around their head with a knife looking to scramble their brain while they struggle.

The latter is not a task I expect many home cooks to be good at.

They key is to have the water at a rolling boil and have enough volume that it doesn't cool when you add a 2 lb lobster head first.

I suspect a lot of the horror stories are from people who added lobster to a pot with too little water.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#582
post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this line of thinking somewhat short sighted. Animals in the wild will almost certainly die more agonizing deaths than they would at the hands of humans. Would you rather a cannibal kill you with one cut to the throat or would you rather be killed by a polar bear that might even enjoy watching you writhe in pain for 10s of minutes before you ultimately pass out from either the excruciating pain or loss of bloo…

“…might enjoy watching you writhe…” I’ve seen no evidence that polar bears enjoy watching their prey suffer. Since you are broadening the scope of the argument then let’s talk about how we raise almost all animals that make it to our plates. The process is meant to be economically efficient and has the minimum legal required considerations for the animals welfare between birth and death. It’s not just about their suf…

> It’s about the suffering from birth to death.

I would suggest for most all animals being raised with constant supply of food and having your health maintained by intelligent actors is far better a life than the brutality found in nature. Caveats apply I'm sure, but in general a farm animal is raised intentionally to eat as much as it can with as little stress as possible. I'd be curious what criteria you could give that would rank animals in nature as suffering less than animals specifically raised in captivity with a specific goal of reducing stressors.

> Human’s system for producing meat has an insane amount of harmful externalities. The polar bear fits into an ecosystem that generally find balance.

harmful to what? to the world ecosystem? You mean the ecosystem that we generally believe has had 5 mass extinction events prior to humans ranging from 75 to 95% of species being wiped out in each of those events? Is that what you call "balance"?

> Not to mention, straw man. You can’t sidestep the question as to whether it is moral to kill an animal a certain way by making a weak argument as to how they might have had it worse.

Well this isn't a strawman at all. I'm not building up some weak argument as you suggest. It's a documented and understood that most animals have predators and of prey species, predation is the most common way to die. Have you ever seen an animal kill another animal gracefully? It does exist, but it is not common.

also, yes I can bypass the moral question and I will do so gladly - completely subjective arguments are pointless, I feel very comfortable in accepting a different moral code than you and I'm fine with your moral code being different than mine.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#583
post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lobsters & crabs are risky to eat unless they are very fresh (i.e. they have not been dead for too long). If you buy a dead lobster and then cook it, you have much less assurance about when it died hence the freshness than with a live lobster. If you buy a live lobster, how are you going to practically kill it before boiling it? Try to penetrate the hard shell to impale the brain using a layperson's skills and equipm…

Perhaps it would be best if the fishmonger or grocery store seafood department worker were to pith it for you at time of sale. They can have proper training and safety equipment (a sharp knife and a cut-resistant glove), and you get an assurance of time of death.

No, because there are still many hours until it's going to be cooked.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#584
post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The "feel" part probably can happen only in the sufficiently large brain, and lobster most likely don't qualify. This seems pretty arbitrary. As a vegan I draw the line at plants vs animals and while it is hard to live in industrialized society without harming animals, it’s easy for me to see how dropping a lobster in a pot will cause the animal to suffer. I’m doing just fine simply not eating them. Why do mental g…

As a vegan how do you reconcile the thousands of insects and field animals that get culled during harvesting those lentils? I don't really have a problem with vegetarians but I do struggle to understand the lines they seemingly draw at random. Minimising harm should be a given for all but that doesn't rule out all meat eating that veganism somehow does.

Funfact you didn't want to know today:

Figs are technically not vegan (nor vegetarian) as during the (highly complex) pollination process some fig-wasps have a wild time in the fruit, where eventually some of the wasps die and get absorbed by the fruit.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#585

Extracts from the LSE report summary: Recommendations relating to specific commercial practices - Declawing . We have high confidence that declawing (removing one or both of the claws from a crab before returning it back to the water) causes suffering in crabs. - Nicking . We also have high confidence that the practice of nicking (cutting the tendon of a crab’s claw) causes suffering and is a health risk to the anima…

I couldn't find their most reasonable slaughter methods easily.

Perhaps https://www.instructables.com/Live-Crab-How-To-Kill-Instantl... for crabs

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#586
post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but 'lobster or no lobster' and 'boiling the lobster alive or not' is an ethical question that stands on its own, there is no need to point out that there are bigger problems than that to be able to arrive at the right answer. Usually when people make the arguments that you make it is because they are trying to justify something in their lives, not because they are so busy to solve things that are more importan…

And if you're talking about an individual making a decision to eat a lobster or not, or to kill it by jabbing a knife in its brain instead of boiling it alive sure. The cost of doing one of the other is virtually nothing, so why not do the one that involves less suffering. But when you're talking about directing government agencies to police an entire country and inspect places to make sure they aren't boiling lobste…

Food and safety inspections as well as animal well-being are already a thing, this would be a minor item added to a list and issuing the edict and making the public aware of it should be enough to curb the bulk of it immediately.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#587

Will there be a law prohibiting other predators, not humans, from hunting these animals?

That is absolutely not comparable and equates to FUD. In a healthy and normally operating ecosystem hierarchies of animals exist and make sure the ecosystem stays in balance. Yes, there are predators killing octopuses and crabs out there in the wild, but it's not to sell them in underwater restaurants and boutiques for a hefty markup to finance the underwater economy. Every animal that kills other animals, apart from…

You seem to be conflating two very different issues. Sustainable harvest and humane practices.

Having humane handling laws doesn't do anything to ensure a sustainable fishery. Conversely, having a sustainable fishery doesn't mean that the animals are handled humanely.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#588

There are a lot of comments asking for vegans to explain themselves and their choices. Vegans are not doing something. If I sit in a chair quietly in a room and another person in the room is running around breaking stuff because “it’s enjoyable” and “the stuff can’t feel any pain” I doubt you’d ask me, the person sitting quietly in their chair, to explain myself. Meat eaters with no concern for animal welfare or envi…

This isn't a vegan issue. Making it one, along with a smug characterization, doesn't help to convert more people over to your cause.

Mature plants nurse their young, providing carbon to younger plants through a mycelial network[0]. They communicate with each other [1]. They generate compounds in response to pain, and might even have vision demonstrated by vines mimicking plastic plants they were grown on [2].

Give it 50 years until we recognize our cruel treatment of plants. Until then I'd recommend compassion, including for those who have different values and beliefs than you.

[0] https://www.globehealth.net/soil-fertility/transfer-of-carbo... [1] https://www.treehugger.com/injured-plants-warn-neighbors-dan... [2] https://nautil.us/issue/104/harmony/plants-feel-pain-and-mig...

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can react to negative stimuli. The question of if that means something can "feel" in the sense we tend to mean it isn't easy to answer.

I mean, my tendon in my knee can "react" to "negative stimuli" when a doctor strikes it with a rubber hammer. I guess the question is about how these words are being used, and whether they're referring to automatic biological reflexes or something like a conscious experience, sentience, or sapience, depending on how you use the terms.

I agree, my thought is less that I think an amoeba feels pain (I don't) but that I don't personally believe things with insect-level complexity feel pain. That they react to negative stimuli definitely doesn't prove sentience, and I personally find the totality of how insects interact with the world to be too extremely mechanistic to believe they feel at all. This is true of crabs as well, I've never really looked into lobsters enough to have an opinion on them.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#590

There are a lot of comments asking for vegans to explain themselves and their choices. Vegans are not doing something. If I sit in a chair quietly in a room and another person in the room is running around breaking stuff because “it’s enjoyable” and “the stuff can’t feel any pain” I doubt you’d ask me, the person sitting quietly in their chair, to explain myself. Meat eaters with no concern for animal welfare or envi…

This isn't a vegan issue. Making it one, along with a smug characterization, doesn't help to convert more people over to your cause. Mature plants nurse their young, providing carbon to younger plants through a mycelial network[0]. They communicate with each other [1]. They generate compounds in response to pain, and might even have vision demonstrated by vines mimicking plastic plants they were grown on [2]. Give it…

If you read the comments you’ll see there is a conversation going on about vegan / non vegan issues. The conversion is happening in the comments. Regardless what the article’s issues are.

You’ve grossly misused the word “nurse”. And “communicate”. Besides I, as a vegan, do not take issue with the taking of life for the purpose of sustaining life. Zero problem with that. That is how nature works. I only take issue with unnecessary pain / cruelty, at global, industrial scales no less.

When people ask me to explain myself for not causing harm or pain or eating a creature when I didn’t have to, over and over and over again, and at the same are indignant if I ask them to explain their reasoning for supporting and participating in industrialized animal raising and slaughter, then yeah I lose patience with the process. It’s not smugness. I just no longer have patience for it.

Like I have no patience for people equating fungi harvesting and the US industrialized beef production system.

You can have different values than me. And most of the time I’d celebrate it. Unless your “values” are used to justify causing pain or harm to other beings or the environment. But if you are employing faulty logic, that’s on you. Faulty logic don’t not “values” make.

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