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The Stroad

strongtowns.org

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Re: The Stroad

#211

Post by hef19898 »

znowcone wrote: post #192
throwaway894345 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I love how I can just jump on a bike here and be at a large supermarket in 5 minutes If you live in a large US city, this can still be very manageable. There are two large grocery stores and a small one as well as a Target and a metro line within a 5 minute walk of my house. Apart from the metro line, we didn't really prioritize the grocery stores, etc when looking for a house. That said, there are many downsides t…

Doesn't sound like a lot to be honest. This is what I'm used to in Germany, say around 1km radius, everything walkable: * 1x big REWE, 3x small REWE, 1x Real, 1x Netto, 2x ALDI, 3x LIDL, 1x Turkish grocery store, 1x Asian grocery store * Too many kiosks too count (tobacco, drinks, snacks, maybe like a convinience store) * Too many bakeries to count * 2 tram/metro stations, soon to be 3 * 5 bus stations (not counting…

That does sound like the Ruhrpott if I had to guess!

Re: The Stroad

#212

Post by itronitron »

frereubu wrote: post #162
throw0101a wrote: post #15

Another article that may be useful: > Americans do not understand the difference between a road and a street. [...] > The value of a road is in the speed and efficiency that it provides for movement between places. Anything that is done that reduces the speed and efficiency of a road devalues that road. If we want to maximize the value of a road, we eliminate anything that reduces the speed and efficiency of travel.…

The centres of most UK towns and cities are now limited to 20mph. Although in practice that means that people drive around 25mph - i.e. just low enough not to be caught for speeding - it does make the streets less threatening for both pedestrians and bikes. The thing that would make it better for cyclists is to line up the speed limit of e-bikes (currently set at a max of 15mph) and the speed limit. Currently the 15m…

They should switch to kph from mph so the effective speed limit is lowered to ~15mph while being labeled as 25kph. Drivers will feel like their going '25' so less likely to feel inconvenienced :)

Re: The Stroad

#213

Post by mcv »

closeparen wrote: post #48
_robbywashere wrote: post #21

I couldn’t agree more with the article. Unfortunately as for America I think people wouldn’t be very happy with turning their stroads into streets. There is a very toxic self centered car culture here; any impediment to it real or imaginary will make people very angry.

Suburbia is a tree. The best residential property is closest to the leaf nodes, since this minimizes through traffic (think cul-de-sac). The best commercial property is closest to the root, since this maximizes it (think McDonalds). The tree empties every morning and fills every night, placing enormous demands on the edges near the root. Those are generally the stroads. Slashing the capacity of a stroad/arterial by t…

No, they need to move the commercial property closer to the leaves. Not at the leaves, but close enough that the distance is still walkable. That would really reduce car traffic, and therefore reduce stress on the road capacity.

Re: The Stroad

#214

Post by HPsquared »

itronitron wrote: post #212
frereubu wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The centres of most UK towns and cities are now limited to 20mph. Although in practice that means that people drive around 25mph - i.e. just low enough not to be caught for speeding - it does make the streets less threatening for both pedestrians and bikes. The thing that would make it better for cyclists is to line up the speed limit of e-bikes (currently set at a max of 15mph) and the speed limit. Currently the 15m…

They should switch to kph from mph so the effective speed limit is lowered to ~15mph while being labeled as 25kph. Drivers will feel like their going '25' so less likely to feel inconvenienced :)

About half would just do 25 mph.

Re: The Stroad

#215

Post by HPsquared »

throw0101a wrote: post #193
laputan_machine wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To be fair, this behaviour isn't one-sided. Often bicycles, e-bikes and motorcycles squeeze through small gaps between cars moving slow'ish in packed traffic. The speed is the issue. A collision at low speeds is much less likely to be fatal [0]. Being closely overtaken by a car when you're going at 20-25mph on a bicycle is 1) a scary experience and 2) unnecessarily dangerous for the cyclist (and not at all for the…

Instead of digging through that PDF, the charts on this post show how a higher speed can drastically increase the odds of fatalities: * https://usa.streetsblog.org/2016/05/31/3-graphs-that-explain... Remember from physics class that kinetic energy is generated proportional to the square of velocity. Doubling speed quadruples energy.

Not only does speed increase the damage inflicted by a given collision, it also makes them more likely: there is less time available to see and respond to hazards, and the space required to stop also is proportional to (speed^2). So for a given road, the risk level (frequency * consequences) is probably even steeper than squared: perhaps more like (speed^3).

Re: The Stroad

#216

Post by mcv »

asdff wrote: post #114
dghlsakjg wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cognitive dissonance is wild. The busiest and most economically vibrant areas in the US are the ones that deprioritize cars (main streets, downtowns, outdoor malls, bar districts). But if you try to change an existing area into a less car friendly area people absolutely lose their heads

There's no cognitive dissonance here really. People are just self interested. They don't want a bunch of bars because that means people will drive drunk and piss and puke all over their property stumbling back after last call. They don't want fewer lanes because its just going to turn their commute from work into even more of a bottleneck. They don't want a mall built near them because of the traffic bottlenecks it w…

If they're afraid that a mall will create traffic bottlenecks, maybe build those malls so they're easy to reach on foot, by bike, or with public transport. That way you don't get that traffic bottleneck.

Re: The Stroad

#217

Post by frereubu »

GordonS wrote: post #165
frereubu wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The centres of most UK towns and cities are now limited to 20mph. Although in practice that means that people drive around 25mph - i.e. just low enough not to be caught for speeding - it does make the streets less threatening for both pedestrians and bikes. The thing that would make it better for cyclists is to line up the speed limit of e-bikes (currently set at a max of 15mph) and the speed limit. Currently the 15m…

> Currently the 15mph / 20mph disjunction means that some idiots still try to squeeze their cars past relatively fast-moving e-bikes (which then often catch up with the car at the next set of lights...) To be fair, this behaviour isn't one-sided. Often bicycles, e-bikes and motorcycles squeeze through small gaps between cars moving slow'ish in packed traffic. Now, of course car drivers should remain vigilant and cont…

With respect, this feels like whataboutery. "To be fair" makes it sound like cars speeding past cyclists is a response to cyclists whipping between lines of cars, but they're entirely separate issues and can both be wrong at the same time without needing to be compared to each other.

Re: The Stroad

#218

Post by mcv »

noobermin wrote: post #202
closeparen wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Socialization needs norms. It’s no accident that relatively urbanized civilizations have relatively strict codes of behavior. America’s wild and free frontier spirit, God bless it, is less fun in a crowded subway.

And soul crushing traffic is wild and free? Or suburban strip malls are wild and free? Or endless cul de sacs? There is a lot of imposed structure to suburbia too, specifically because it is planned.

In fact, it has more imposed structure, exactly because of the unreasonably restrictive zoning laws in the US. Allow more variety and you get more choice.

Re: The Stroad

#219

Post by frereubu »

fho wrote: post #176
frereubu wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The centres of most UK towns and cities are now limited to 20mph. Although in practice that means that people drive around 25mph - i.e. just low enough not to be caught for speeding - it does make the streets less threatening for both pedestrians and bikes. The thing that would make it better for cyclists is to line up the speed limit of e-bikes (currently set at a max of 15mph) and the speed limit. Currently the 15m…

Counterpoint: I regularly go 40-50 km/h on my (not e-)bike on a downhill rural road (40 km/h speed limit) and drivers still feel obligated to overtake me.

Absolutely true, and that's happened to me plenty of times too. There's definitely a trigger in the minds of some drivers where seeing a cyclist means that they need to overtake them because the vast majority of the time the cyclist isn't going to be near the speed limit.

Re: The Stroad

#220

Post by QuarterReptile »

Upvoter33 wrote: post #210

I've been a fan of "strong towns" for a while. I was wondering if anyone in the know here could answer: has it made much difference?

I've been following along and donating since Chuck was on EconTalk in 2014, and the answer seems to be a clear 'yes'. Chuck sometimes says that the goal, other than to disappear because they're no longer needed, is to ensure that no city council or planning commission can ever make one of these really stupid developments without the opposition of people who buy into Strong Towns ideals, so it has been about fighting for mindshare. To that effect, their ~hundredfold increase in meetup attendance and the repeating of their message on huge channels like Not Just Bikes are both indicators of success.

They're trying to overthrow the design vernacular of an entire society, and that's necessarily hard despite that vernacular being dangerous, dehumanizing, and expensive. It's a team effort, but I think they're pulling their weight.

If you're (reasonably) wondering what they, as a particular organization, bring to the table, look at Chuck. He's a conservative Catholic engineer from a small Midwest town, which is significant both because that's a rare voice in this space, and because his broad appeal indicates something the organization is doing well so that it can reach a group that doesn't jump for 'Vision Zero', 'look at Europe', etc.

In his recent announcement that the fatal library crossing from his second book just brought about another death, Chuck is as feisty as I've ever heard him; he's out for blood. I think he might be on to something with the goal of bringing crippling lawsuits against city engineers who have been sheltering from responsibility by hiding behind MUTCD.

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