Good. Especially for octopuses, which are amazing animals - clearly intelligent and sentient.
Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law
401–410 of 704 posts
Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law
#402Even as a meat eater I’m pretty shocked that this recognises them as sentient and yet does not ban their slaughter (aside from boiling them alive etc). Maybe I’ve read too much science fiction, but eating sentient beings seems Bad.
I disagree. So long as we don’t torture them I see no problem in consuming other creatures. “One bad day” is a good guideline for how animals should be harvested for food. So long as they aren’t in physical pain during their life, I don’t think animals really care or even understand their situation. For instance, a bunch of cattle don’t wonder about how their lives would be better if they were free range. They just l…
This is easily refuted by the myriad instances of animals escaping their captors, strategizing, and even empathizing. For academic writing on exactly that, I suggest reading "Animal Resistance in the Global Capitalist Era" by Sarat Colling.
Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law
#403Context: I'm not a hypocrite. I eat a lot of meat. I would put very strong money down that by the time most people reading these comments are in an old folks home with their grandchildren, the vast majority of the population will consider consumption of all meat unethical. I don't think it will be illegal yet (just extremely regulated, and expensive - not the least bit because the carbon footprint of meat production…
Eating meat is something natural, which be benefited from through our evolution, and which I think cannot be unethical in absolute terms. I think the term 'ethical' is being abused a lot these days. People do have opinions and beliefs and are free to decide that they do not want to eat meat as an personal ethical stance.
The rights and wrongs of industrial meat production and high consumption can indeed be discussed.
> We didn't eat dogs but considered pigs and cows different? Why?
As a species we do eat dogs and many other animals. Herbivores are much better suited for breeding and cultural (that includes religion) constructs mean that some animals are taboo (pigs and cows are both taboo in some societies as well).
Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law
#404The essay "Consider the Lobster" by David Foster Wallace came to my mind. In that essay he describes how extraordinary the nervous system of a lobster is and how mindlessly and cruelly we boil them live. If David were still alive, he would definitely welcome this development. I really miss David. I am awestruck by his other essay "This is Water". I am amazed at his deep insights into human nature and how well he desc…
Lobsters have essentially the same number of neurons in their entire nervous system (including the “brian”) as a fruit fly does. Complex yes? Interestingly complex? Not even close. A cockroach has 10x more.
Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law
#405Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Another common and ridiculous meme is the "pregnancy after having sex once" idea. Are you suggesting the odds of that are so low that they’re laughable? Because they’re not..
There's only (approximately) two days a month when a human female can get pregnant. It's not about frequency or intensity, rather it's mostly timing. (And sperm quality, but that's another thing people have no clue about.)
Don't assume any hard-and-fast rules when it comes to fertility, and definitely don't assume that somebody can only get pregnant two days out of the month. Our species would never have survived if that was really true.
Biology is messy, imprecise, and very subject to external effects.
Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law
#406[flagged]
Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law
#407What does this mean in practice? By this definition, surely normal farm animals are sentient, but they are eaten, experimented on and frightfully frequently abused, so... what’s the change?
Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law
#408Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nearly everyone has recent ancestors that lived on a farm and loved playing with the animals. Once they were old enough to connect the dots and later saw the butchering process, they remained omnivores for the rest of their lives.
Yeah some people don't care. But I think there would be FAR less meat eaters if they weren't able to avoid the carnage.
In the same way, creating unnecessary suffering also creates sadistic societies that lead to a lot of harm.
So there is a golden mean in which a natural amount of suffering is recognized as the price of life - we will all suffer and die, but in exchange we can also live -- and people have historically been mature enough to accept that and decide the combo of life+suffering as better than the combo no-life+no-suffering.
Specifically for the case of livestock, none of those animals would have been born if they were not going to be eaten, so for humanely raised animals, the suffering imposed on the animal when the farmer sends it to slaughter is not so great as to outweigh the life given to the animal by the same farmer. This can be viewed as the definition of humane animal husbandry.
Of course there is a lot of animal husbandry that is not humane and this type of animal husbandry is unethical. That's why there is a big movement for full pasture-raised beef and grass fed beef without hormones, as well as pasture-raised chicken, etc.
Similarly for the hunter, killing the octopus or salmon or deer is not worse than some other animal doing the same or the animal dying of some other cause, so there is not a net increase in suffering for the animal's life simply because a human eats it as opposed to some other animal eating it.
This of course depends on the ecological system being in balance. Killing an animal takes away one meal from its predators but also saves the lives of its prey. An ecological system is in a steady state when everything eaten is replaced so again suffering is the price of life within a balanced ecology, and that ecology includes human hunters.
By the same token, overfishing or overhunting that drives animals to extinction is also not humane, while hunting and fishing that does not is humane.
By the way this is why vegetarianism in western societies is primarily practiced by younger people who feel as if they are immortal and aren't really faced with the understanding that everything in life must be paid for with suffering and death. They view suffering as strange.
Others do not, and that's the dividing line. It's not that people don't care, they just aren't convinced that hedonism is a basis for a healthy society and they look for a wiser, more balanced ethical system that values life with suffering, and that includes the life of animals hunted or raised for food.
Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law
#409Earlier quoted context omitted.
I get more freaked out about thinking of falling into the atmosphere of Jupiter, just falling and falling and falling, eventually getting crushed. Or maybe a giant tentacle grabbing me, being pulled into some unthinking Cyclopean maw lurking just under the big red spot... The entire rest of the universe is even more terrifying if only because it's so much more inhospitable to life.
> [...] Or maybe a giant tentacle grabbing me, being pulled into some unthinking Cyclopean maw lurking just under the big red spot... Any tentacle or maw belonging to a jovian lifeform would be about as substantial as a... well, let's just say that the image of a jellyfish trying to eat a crab comes to mind. The jellyfish doesn't fare too well.
Long story short, there is a gradient in flesh texture from their bodies to their beaks- there’s no clear line where the body ends and the beak begins.
I always thought that was fascinating.
Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law
#410[flagged]