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Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

lse.ac.uk

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Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#211

Post by causasui »

glenstein wrote: post #134
adriand wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not because we are humans and therefore more valuable to each other I value my children more than I value your children, but you will likely disagree with my assessment, even though it isn’t unexpected. And I would have to admit my assessment is not objective. > Never mind the fact that we have consciousness and ego and complex nervous systems, whereas lobsters do not. That’s how speciesism works: we try to find so…

>because they lack X they are not worthy of consideration. It’s okay if they suffer. This is precisely the same logic that was used to justify slavery, for example. Wowzers, this is the most strawmanny characterisation of this view I think I've seen outside of scifi villains in B movies. I don't think the most charitable view is that species "deserve to suffer." It's that they have different capacities for suffering,…

> ... we prioritize saving our children from a burning building in a way that we don't prioritize saving the mice living in the basement of that burning building

The building isn't burning. We don't have to choose between our children and mice.

You can live a full, healthy life while minimizing to as full extent as possible the suffering you directly or indirectly inflict on other sentient creatures.

The argument you present here against your characterization of the OPs point is akin to saying "my kid really loves McNuggets so I don't care about the horror 50 billion chickens suffer in a given year".

Again, the building isn't on fire; you don't have to choose one or the other.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#212

Post by lanevorockz »

xvilka wrote: post #145
monkeybutton wrote: post #6

Octopi I understand, but lobsters? They have less than half the nervous system of an ant [1]. Are individual ants sentient and worthy of legislating over? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_by_number_of...

Even something small as jumping spiders can be quite smart. They certainly deserve some respect. And live boiling is common for crustaceans. Terrible practice, sentient or not.

Boiling is supposed to be painless and it’s meaning behind “boiling a frog alive”.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#213

Post by lanevorockz »

BeeBoBub wrote: post #54
adriand wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By this logic, humans should be given only half the consideration we give to orcas, which according to the resource you posted, have twice the neurons we do.

That’s not really the argument monkeybutton is making, the point is lobsters’ neural complexity is similar to ants, and orcas are comparable to humans.

It’s still a gradation, “as complex” is obviously a stretch. The whole argument is silly, soon turning off my Deep Learning algorithms because they are more complex than lobster.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#214

Post by Taywee »

onion2k wrote: post #200
chimpansteve wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who grew up on a small beef farm in the UK but is also very picky about the source of the meat he eats, my personal anecdotal experience is that vegan or meat eater, the problem is that the vast majority of people have never been within 100m of livestock, and have zero comprehension of where their food actually comes from or how it arrives in their nice refrigerated trays. The cows on my dad's farm probabl…

Quality of life isn't the whole story though. Longevity matters too. When I was a child if someone had asked me "Would you like to live a life of opulent luxury but be killed when you're 20?" I'd have said no. There is no doubt that a good farm is better than a bad farm, but neither is particularly great if you're a cow.

I think it really depends what the alternative is. If it's that vs living in the wilderness in a small family and no other support against the elements or vicious predators, that's not such as easy decision. Cows don't have a support system, society, government, or social welfare in their non-farm state. They just try to survive the elements and the environment.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#215

Post by jacquesm »

imgabe wrote: post #201
mojomark wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lions don't boil antelopes alive, nor do they reportedly tear them apart while they're alive, instead they suffocate or sever their necks before eating them [1]. (Note: I had a lobster role for lunch two days ago, and I love them. However, these findings give me pause on eating them further.) 1. https://www.krugerpark.co.za/Kruger_National_Park_Wildlife-t...

That’s kind of beside the point. I’m sure the process of being killed and eaten by a lion nevertheless causes “pain, distress, and harm”. These things are a part of life.

Yes, but Lions lack - for want of a better term - options, whereas we humans have plenty of options. We decide to boil living creatures alive, their feelings be damned because we like their taste better that way. But that's a very conscious choice to inflict harm. In the court of ethics the Lion was just eating, the human being was inflicting unnecessary pain.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#216

Post by lanevorockz »

adriand wrote: post #29
monkeybutton wrote: post #6

Octopi I understand, but lobsters? They have less than half the nervous system of an ant [1]. Are individual ants sentient and worthy of legislating over? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_by_number_of...

By this logic, humans should be given only half the consideration we give to orcas, which according to the resource you posted, have twice the neurons we do.

It also means that deep learning algorithms will soon deserve more rights than humans.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#217

Post by jacquesm »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #107
adriand wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not because we are humans and therefore more valuable to each other I value my children more than I value your children, but you will likely disagree with my assessment, even though it isn’t unexpected. And I would have to admit my assessment is not objective. > Never mind the fact that we have consciousness and ego and complex nervous systems, whereas lobsters do not. That’s how speciesism works: we try to find so…

That's why we try to deal with killings in a most humane way possible (basically a bullet to the head for larger animals, and cutting the neck for smaller ones).... not always, not everywhere, but we try, and we point the fingers at those who don't. Animals on the other side really don't care: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/olga-moskalyova_n_930464

And boiling lobsters alive.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#218

Post by JPKab »

ryan_j_naughton wrote: post #85
monkeybutton wrote: post #6

Octopi I understand, but lobsters? They have less than half the nervous system of an ant [1]. Are individual ants sentient and worthy of legislating over? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_by_number_of...

Octopi is not the correct plural. Octopus is of greek origin, not latin. Thus, its greek plural is octopodes. And thus, since we don't tend to use greek plurals in english, the other proper plural is octopuses. Octopi is what's known as a hypercorrection. "A hypercorrection is non-standard use of language that results from the over-application of a perceived rule of language-usage prescription. A speaker or writer wh…

What's the plural of pedantic jackass?

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#219

Post by stathibus »

adriand wrote: post #72
stathibus wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's weird how use of the word "speciesism" implies that some place humans above other animals as a result of some kind of fallacy or irrational thinking, and not because we are humans and therefore more valuable to each other. Never mind the fact that we have consciousness and ego and complex nervous systems, whereas lobsters do not.

> not because we are humans and therefore more valuable to each other I value my children more than I value your children, but you will likely disagree with my assessment, even though it isn’t unexpected. And I would have to admit my assessment is not objective. > Never mind the fact that we have consciousness and ego and complex nervous systems, whereas lobsters do not. That’s how speciesism works: we try to find so…

This is not at all the same logic that was used to justify slavery, unless you're trying to claim that actually lobsters are people? But it seems like you are just grandstanding and not trying to address the actual point here.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#220

Post by otherotherchris »

ohyeshedid wrote: post #185
mduncs wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the person you're replying to, but according to this site here [0], crustaceans make up $262M or 0.64% of the agricultural export for the UK. Not small, but certainly smaller than other agriculture sectors. [0] https://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/explore?country=81&product=und...

I don't know if using exports is anywhere near the industry totals. According to NOAA, in regards to US totals[1]: "Overall, the highest value U.S. commercial species were salmon ($688 million), crabs ($610 million), lobsters ($594 million), shrimp ($531 million), scallops ($512 million), and Alaska pollock ($413 million)." [1] https://www.noaa.gov/media-release/american-seafood-industry...

Most trawlers are owned by small businesses. They have very little lobbying power compared to the massive multinational agricultural conglomerates that control pork and poultry. JBS in particular is enormous, it owns almost a third of global pork processing through it's subsidiaries.
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