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Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

lse.ac.uk

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Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#201

Post by imgabe »

mojomark wrote: post #193
imgabe wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does being an “antelope” somehow justify being torn apart and eaten by a lion? Yeah actually, it does because lions eat antelopes and humans eat lobsters. Nature doesn’t owe any being an existence devoid of suffering.

Lions don't boil antelopes alive, nor do they reportedly tear them apart while they're alive, instead they suffocate or sever their necks before eating them [1]. (Note: I had a lobster role for lunch two days ago, and I love them. However, these findings give me pause on eating them further.) 1. https://www.krugerpark.co.za/Kruger_National_Park_Wildlife-t...

That’s kind of beside the point. I’m sure the process of being killed and eaten by a lion nevertheless causes “pain, distress, and harm”. These things are a part of life.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#202

Post by bumby »

willis936 wrote: post #153
bumby wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is some thought backed neuroscience that lobsters can't feel pain in the human conception of it because of the lack of a neocortex. I don't know how well that can be tested, but it goes beyond justifying it because "that's what paw deid"

A lobster being boiled behaves the same way a cow or dog or human behaves when being boiled. Seems strange to make the cutoff for acceptable treatment based around a wishy-washy ill-defined notion of "Can this thing that is very different than me feel pain? I promise I am not biased by the fact that I have vertebrae."

How is being derived from current understanding of biology wishy-washy? Reaction to stimuli and pain are different phenomena. If you’re stance is “we just don’t know for certain so it’s better to be conservative” that’s fine, but that uncertainty shouldn’t be conflated with actual reason when it’s just based on wishy-washy anthropomorphism.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#203

Post by monocasa »

Izkata wrote: post #194
cfcfcf wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the American pronunciation of “processes” (as in, rhymes with bees) also a hypercorrection?

> American pronunciation ..since when? I don't think I've ever heard "processees" before...

I hear it maybe 20% of the time.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#204

Post by bee_rider »

colechristensen wrote: post #129
forgotmyoldname wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Within the realm of what many people consider “bugs”, intelligence also exists. For example, jumping spiders have intelligence similar to mammals or birds. Research is ongoing with bees and they’re seeming similarly advanced, with some having the capacity to suffer depression. In all likelihood, there exist insects with reasonably high levels intelligence that we’ve simply overlooked for centuries. Basically everyone…

I really doubt a spider is as smart as me. Perhaps a contrived problem solving test proves a certain kind of spider is good at solving a certain kind of problem, but I really doubt I’d be the same with a brain as complex as a spider.

Of course they aren't comparable to humans, but some spiders are amazingly clever. For example, Portia spiders, which hunt other spiders, will apparently try different ways of manipulating the target's web, observe the target's behavior, and then adapt their manipulations to trick the target.

The link below has a giant picture of a spider, so although it is an adorable Portia, if anyone has arachnophobia they shouldn't click it:

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/10/spiders-are-much-sma...

They describe a bunch of different experiments. An interesting one was: the scientists put one type of prey in view of the spider. Then, they blocked view and either swapped they prey with something else, or left it there. Then they revealed the view again. The spiders pay more attention if the prey is a new type, which is interpreted as 'surprise' and an indication that the spider has some mental model of the world.

I mean it is a spider, so bit of a low bar to clear for intelligence, but still interesting that they are thinking about the world.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#205

Post by utunga »

ryan_j_naughton wrote: post #85
monkeybutton wrote: post #6

Octopi I understand, but lobsters? They have less than half the nervous system of an ant [1]. Are individual ants sentient and worthy of legislating over? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_by_number_of...

Octopi is not the correct plural. Octopus is of greek origin, not latin. Thus, its greek plural is octopodes. And thus, since we don't tend to use greek plurals in english, the other proper plural is octopuses. Octopi is what's known as a hypercorrection. "A hypercorrection is non-standard use of language that results from the over-application of a perceived rule of language-usage prescription. A speaker or writer wh…

A great example of

Grays law:

"Any online discussion that mentions the word 'octopi' - regardless how tangentially - will eventually turn into a discussion on linguistics"

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#206

Post by boston_clone »

glenstein wrote: post #134
adriand wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not because we are humans and therefore more valuable to each other I value my children more than I value your children, but you will likely disagree with my assessment, even though it isn’t unexpected. And I would have to admit my assessment is not objective. > Never mind the fact that we have consciousness and ego and complex nervous systems, whereas lobsters do not. That’s how speciesism works: we try to find so…

>because they lack X they are not worthy of consideration. It’s okay if they suffer. This is precisely the same logic that was used to justify slavery, for example. Wowzers, this is the most strawmanny characterisation of this view I think I've seen outside of scifi villains in B movies. I don't think the most charitable view is that species "deserve to suffer." It's that they have different capacities for suffering,…

Morality doesn't necessarily require deep intellectualism, I think. Much of the urgency in the vignettes of moral assessment isn't realistic, either.

To say it simply, there is no proverbial burning building that requires us to farm animals in the way that we currently do. There is much about our practices that absolutely reflects an absence of consideration - shouldn't we be working to improve that?

Saying that there is an inverse prioritization is not the matter at hand. We're not even on equal ground. It's just raising the bar for a thankfully growing number of different animals off the floor.

I maybe didn't grok your point of view on speciesism, though - could you try to reframe it?

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#207

Post by aidenn0 »

kortex wrote: post #189
Kye wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I call them octopuppers.

Winner. This is one way to cut through the Gordion knot of this endless debate. I'll be calling them octopuppers henceforth.

I've always preferred octopice...

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#209

Post by lanevorockz »

monkeybutton wrote: post #6

Octopi I understand, but lobsters? They have less than half the nervous system of an ant [1]. Are individual ants sentient and worthy of legislating over? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_by_number_of...

If you want to stop the sale of Lobsters, yes. It’s one of those politics first arguments.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#210

Post by lanevorockz »

ryan_j_naughton wrote: post #85
monkeybutton wrote: post #6

Octopi I understand, but lobsters? They have less than half the nervous system of an ant [1]. Are individual ants sentient and worthy of legislating over? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_by_number_of...

Octopi is not the correct plural. Octopus is of greek origin, not latin. Thus, its greek plural is octopodes. And thus, since we don't tend to use greek plurals in english, the other proper plural is octopuses. Octopi is what's known as a hypercorrection. "A hypercorrection is non-standard use of language that results from the over-application of a perceived rule of language-usage prescription. A speaker or writer wh…

Language is not about correct or incorrect, just about what people use. Please don’t obsess about it.
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