Ask HN: Why does cryptocurrency subjects on HN lack curious conversations? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Why does cryptocurrency subjects on HN lack curious conversations?

#141

Post by mandmandam » Sun, Nov 21, 2021, 12:12 PM UTC

I agree 100%, except my memory of the early crypto conversations is a bit different. I remember very little curiosity on display, and a whole lot of confidently wrong predictions of imminent collapse.

My view is that if cash is crude oil, Bitcoin and mined currencies are whale oil; competing against fusion.

The discussion here these days is basically people saying things like, whale oil is better than nuclear fusion because you can put it in your pocket; fusion is dangerous because Chernobyl; whales probably aren't that great for the environment anyway because they eat so much krill, etc. It's ignorance and delusion at best, and self interested FUD at worst.

Despite all their tech savvy, and socioeconomic advantages, most people here seem to be proudly and willfully ignorant re crypto. There are people in this thread, and indeed every crypto thread here I've ever seen, still moaning that proof of stake is a pipe dream, that proof of work / mining is necessary, that the environmental impact is too high, etc.

And that hasn't been true for at least 6 years.

Newer generations of crypto, such as Nano, are: * nearly instant (6 million times more environmentally friendly than bitcoin (0.000112 kWh vs 741 kWh) * completely fee-less * mining free - there are no coins being added or taken away, they are all distributed

If you think about it, there are literally hundreds of different groups with various vested interests who would fight tooth and nail against something so superior; and for the moment it's kinda working, because the new generation of crypto sounds a bit too good to be true next to BTC. It's truly disheartening seeing those discussion get flagged, full of nonsensical arguments that are so trivial to disprove. I remain confident that truth and efficiency will win out, just like fusion will. It just might take some time, and you'll probably have to give up on the idea that this community will wise up to it any time soon.

Re: Ask HN: Why does cryptocurrency subjects on HN lack curious conversations?

#142

Post by speedgoose » Sun, Nov 21, 2021, 12:14 PM UTC

ajg4 wrote: post #14

svennek wrote: post #3

I think basically because there is nothing interesting left to discus. One camp (where I am in) basically believes it is an environmental disaster, unsuitable for its stated purpose and most likely as scam by the "whales" manipulating the price, and with a potential 51%-disaster. The other camp believes that it is the future of money, untraceable wealth storage and inflation/"confiscation proof" and that all the envi…

Why will proof-of-stake never happen?

In my opinion it's because it has not happened yet. Yes I know about the etherium experiment that has been delayed many times but may be running currently, but the crypto community seem to prefer the proof of work.

Re: Ask HN: Why does cryptocurrency subjects on HN lack curious conversations?

#143

Post by prohobo » Sun, Nov 21, 2021, 12:19 PM UTC

gjulianm wrote: post #139

prohobo wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you quite grasp that people are already building blockchains for government use. You keep saying "why haven't they done it yet then?" while they are actively working on it. I don't know why it took so long, but it's happening now. Once you have verifiable "truth" in a system, it becomes a lot harder for it to become corrupt. "The emperor has no clothes" modality stops being profitable because there's a…

> You keep saying "why haven't they done it yet then?" while they are actively working on it. I don't know why it took so long, but it's happening now. Yep, and we have seen some government bodies using Github or other platforms to publish open data, or to be more transparent on procedures, and yet most of them still don't do it. Which is my point: the problem is not lack of technology, but lack of motivation/human c…

I don't dispute that this is mostly theoretical. But I wouldn't say it's naive, because we know that when people buy into systems they follow the rules as best they can. The problem occurs when others take advantage of the system to game it with plausible deniability, within the confines of said system. That's the entire point of "the emperor has no clothes" allegory. When people buy in to a broken system, broken things happen.

That's why you get papers "proving" someone's guilt, but no action taken because the handling of such situations lies outside of the common understanding of the system. I'm sure most people think to themselves "I'm sure if the papers were legitimate then that person would be in jail, there must be something else going on". When you codify the system entirely, and people buy into it, then someone submits papers recognized by the system to be authentic that prove someone is guilty of a crime, it's much more likely there will be enough pressure to take action in that case, because then people are thinking more along the lines of "those legitimate papers proved they're guilty, why are they still not in jail?"

Obviously one major problem is how to build a system which handles all of the edge-cases that crop up? One possible answer is to use a DAO which can modify itself through whatever means (usually democratic).

Re: Ask HN: Why does cryptocurrency subjects on HN lack curious conversations?

#144

Post by leroman » Sun, Nov 21, 2021, 12:21 PM UTC

Applejinx wrote: post #140

leroman wrote: post #96

My main criticism comes from the fact that Bitcoin (and other crypto-coins) had a good several years to find a purpose, to this day, I am not aware of a single use-case where they are used to solve a real world problem. If I had to sum up how I feel about Bitcoin (/ crypto / block chain..) - magic buzz word for the non-tech-savvy ,draw for gamblers & ego driven individuals, theme of quasi-fake money-grab startups.. I…

Blackmail, extortion and drug dealing absolutely are real world problems that bitcoin directly serves to facilitate. The notion of it being in any way an investment vehicle is a whole separate thing, an arguably non-proven use-case. Being able to use bitcoin to conduct actions outside the control of any government or law is absolutely, demonstrably proven. That part delivers on all its promises. Nobody ever said that…

Good point.

If Bitcoin was shutdown today, how would these criminals collect their ransoms?

Re: Ask HN: Why does cryptocurrency subjects on HN lack curious conversations?

#145

Post by ddtaylor » Sun, Nov 21, 2021, 12:29 PM UTC

As a long time supporter and developer of cryptocurrency I myself am pretty disconnected from the space right now. Almost all of the goals we set out in the early days of Bitcoin, like "be your own bank" have failed terribly. After more than a decade all we've managed to accomplish is creating a slightly different arrangement of the same pieces.

Re: Ask HN: Why does cryptocurrency subjects on HN lack curious conversations?

#146

Post by prohobo » Sun, Nov 21, 2021, 12:40 PM UTC

gls2ro wrote: post #133

prohobo wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they didn't. Most people just make inflammatory comments or make extremely complex "gotcha" claims that aren't true, which need both parties to be cooperative to resolve. I was busy trying to make arguments against wild claims, and ended up saying dumb things like "Amazon Alexas burn more energy in a year by sitting idle in people's homes than the entire Bitcoin network does"; things that are technically true but…

Out of curiosity how do you estimate this comparison: > Amazon Alexas burn more energy in a year by sitting idle in people's homes than the entire Bitcoin network does

I actually looked into it and got the quote wrong, it's not Amazon Alexas globally, it's all "always on devices" in America; including computers, gaming consoles, etc.

From googling and "This Machine Greens" docu:

> American always on devices: 1375 TWh per year

> Cruise ships: 250 TWh per year

> Bitcoin: 116 TWh per year

> Online advertising: 106 TWh per year

> American Alexas: 1.52 TWh per year

Re: Ask HN: Why does cryptocurrency subjects on HN lack curious conversations?

#147

Post by gjulianm » Sun, Nov 21, 2021, 12:42 PM UTC

prohobo wrote: post #143

gjulianm wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You keep saying "why haven't they done it yet then?" while they are actively working on it. I don't know why it took so long, but it's happening now. Yep, and we have seen some government bodies using Github or other platforms to publish open data, or to be more transparent on procedures, and yet most of them still don't do it. Which is my point: the problem is not lack of technology, but lack of motivation/human c…

I don't dispute that this is mostly theoretical. But I wouldn't say it's naive, because we know that when people buy into systems they follow the rules as best they can. The problem occurs when others take advantage of the system to game it with plausible deniability, within the confines of said system. That's the entire point of "the emperor has no clothes" allegory. When people buy in to a broken system, broken thi…

> I'm sure most people think to themselves "I'm sure if the papers were legitimate then that person would be in jail, there must be something else going on". When you codify the system entirely, and people buy into it, then someone submits papers recognized by the system to be authentic that prove someone is guilty of a crime, it's much more likely there will be enough pressure to take action in that case, because then people are thinking more along the lines of "those legitimate papers proved they're guilty, why are they still not in jail?"

Or people think to themselves "well, the papers are authentic but the meaning is open to interpretation" or "well, it's not such a bad thing" or "well, but the others are doing worse", or a myriad of things. All of those are real arguments I've seen made.

It is naive to think that you can codify everything into a system in a way where there's no open interpretation possible. It is naive to think that people will trust the system instead of what they heard the system says, or that people will trust the system over leaders, or the the people responsible for enforcing the system decisions and feeding the system information won't find a way to elude responsibility.

In general, it is naive to think that the problem of corruption, which is a problem about trust (if the person I like says he didn't do it or did it for a good reason, then I trust him above all else), enforcement (the ones responsible for enforcing the rules are the ones breaking them) and tolerance (people don't care that much about corruption if it doesn't harm them) will be fixed by a solution that at most will help a little bit in the enforcement part.

Re: Ask HN: Why does cryptocurrency subjects on HN lack curious conversations?

#148

Post by newacc9 » Sun, Nov 21, 2021, 12:43 PM UTC

svennek wrote: post #3

I think basically because there is nothing interesting left to discus. One camp (where I am in) basically believes it is an environmental disaster, unsuitable for its stated purpose and most likely as scam by the "whales" manipulating the price, and with a potential 51%-disaster. The other camp believes that it is the future of money, untraceable wealth storage and inflation/"confiscation proof" and that all the envi…

You could have written this summary in 2015, you're not keeping current.

Re: Ask HN: Why does cryptocurrency subjects on HN lack curious conversations?

#149

Post by EugeneOZ » Sun, Nov 21, 2021, 12:55 PM UTC

anonymoushn wrote: post #136

EugeneOZ wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, just converting crypto coins into real currencies. I wrote it in the first comment.

Alright. This happens by default if I take no actions when I deposit USDC at FTX - the USDC is redeemed for dollars and added to my dollar balance. I can head over to the FTX OTC desk to trade my dollars for other fiat currencies at competitive rates provided by their HK banking partner. So the process of withdrawing to fiat takes a few seconds.

It's funny how you are trying to ignore my words about identity confirmation and KYC. For me, while this is required, the whole point of “crypto” is nullified. And this process is not fast. And I hate to share such information.

Re: Ask HN: Why does cryptocurrency subjects on HN lack curious conversations?

#150

Post by jacknews » Sun, Nov 21, 2021, 12:58 PM UTC

anonymoushn wrote: post #128

jacknews wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

uber is perfectly legal the last time I checked? And let's see how that story pans out actually. I don't agree with the taxi mafia, but uber are not exactly knights in shining armor either, and are only really viable because of a Venture Capital subsidized attempt to create a monopoly. Is your argument that bitcoin circumvents established institutions, particularly the unjust ones? I see the appeal, but those should…

uber was not perfectly legal in all jurisdictions at all times. I would guess they were operating illegally in almost every jurisdiction when they began operating there. They in fact had teams dedicated to illegal activities in specific regions. There's an article about that here by Mike Isaac who also wrote a pretty good book about Uber: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/03/technology/uber-greyball-... It seems like i…

You shouldn't just be waiting for govt to fix anything. Govt acts through the mandate of the people, so if you want it to do something you should be lobying and voting for it.

Private enterprise quite legitimately alters the playing field by introducing new products, services and business models. LEGALLY. When it does so illegally, it should be stopped.

That is exactly my argument, bad institutions should be disrupted by legal competition, or (better), legal or political pressure. Not by illegal circumventions.