When profit centered design enters the building, human centered design jumps out of the window. Rationalizing this with thousand UX cases and cluttered UI is not a solution to the user problems. But the users buy this stuff and so the things go on.
Bring Back Our Knobs: Analog vs. Digital (2009)
171–180 of 218 posts
Re: Bring Back Our Knobs: Analog vs. Digital (2009)
#172I think Honda got this exactly right, at least in my 2018 car. There is a touchscreen that controls everything, but also physical knobs and buttons for the important stuff you'd want to control while keep your eyes on the road (radio volume, A/C, radio frequency, seat heaters, transmission gear, etc). If you want more detail and more options, you can go to the touchscreen, but if you just need the basics, you can do…
Recently rented a small-ish Ford (a Puma) which had physical control for almost everything you'd want to adjust while driving, though the touchscreen was pretty crap (and didn't duplicate most of the physical controls, which I didn't mind). Also it had one of those infuriating pseudo-analog control wheels, where you can keep spinning and spinning the wheel with no effect once it reaches either end of its selection co…
My 2014 Mercedes has a clicky wheel/joystick combo with a menu system that doesn't wrap around, and it's excellent. I can always go to any item without looking because I know that 5up and 5left will go to the start of the menu (even if I don't remember which menu item I left it on, though it's almost always the music tab) and then I can navigate with the clicky wheel.
No other controls, but very easy to use without looking.
Re: Bring Back Our Knobs: Analog vs. Digital (2009)
#173Ideal cockpit panel is one with a bunch of knob and a bunch of switch with e-ink label that allow you to freely reassign, and maybe a resitive instead of capacitive touch screen for some odds thing. They are less prone to accidently touching and work with gloves
Reassigning functions during use or over the course of ownership is a Very Bad Idea.
Even for professional commercial pilots there are numerous aircraft accidents which can be attributed to "alternate law" (different control-system response modes) engaging or disengaging at different times, often without clearly notifying flight crew of this fact. And this is an issue for operators trained and licensed to specific aircraft, instrumentation, and variants. Air France 447 is a classic example of this.
The case for automobile operators, many of whom receive cursory training at best early in their driving careers and carry this forward for decades, often operating novel or unfamiliar vehicles (rentals, borrowed from a friend, acting as a relief driver during a long trip) is simply a recipe for disaster.
Control functions should not change after designation, with the possible exception of auxiliary controls not critical to overall vehicle performance or function, or those which are accessed and used only when the vehicle is not in motion (e.g., diagnostics or repair information / interfaces).
Re: Bring Back Our Knobs: Analog vs. Digital (2009)
#174The approach should be digital knobs, which work relative to their setting and roll-through endlessly magnetically. So software can react, but user is in control. The worst change in recent years is kitchen plates all having these horrible touch systems or magnetic detachable knobs. It's horribly slow in usage, monster learning curve, locking systems which all behave differently, fails when wet. It's so over-designed…
My current car has endless knobs:
If I set the volume to 0 the software pauses a recording so I can no longer skip unwanted parts without messing with fast-forward while driving. These smart knobs invite designers to mess with basic functionality that has worked for decades (play, pause, rewind, fast forward)
Occasionally, due to a bug, on cold winter mornings when I set the heating to max, I won't get warm air even after I've driven for a while and the engine is already hot. I then have to move the knob to cold and hot again for the software to register and finally give me some warmth.
I'd like chickenhead knobs that are connected to the functionality as direct as possible, please!
Re: Bring Back Our Knobs: Analog vs. Digital (2009)
#175Earlier quoted context omitted.
I know this makes me a clueless annoying boring techie nerd :), but I still cannot properly fathom how this is a minority opinion. NOBODY in my non-techie group of friends or family cares. Not.even.remotely. I watch them struggle with their touch screens, I even listen to them rant, but when asked about it afterwards, it's fine. Just fine. Sexy. Sleek. Desirable. Why do I have to go and ruin everything? Honestly, eve…
I recently bought a new car. The old one had HVAC as you described. I don't use the new one any differently though. When it's really cold, I turn the heat all the way up until I'm comfortable. Then I turn it down and keep it there. This is exactly what I did in my old car too. In the new one I just don't use the "auto" feature, and haven't even tried because my established behavior still applies. Then only difference…
A button has opened car doors for 20 years, the keyless start nonsense offers no benefit. To turn the engine off with a key you have to press a button then find the key.
When I’m driving I use the buttons on the steering wheel to change volume, station etc, more complex stuff needs a touch screen (CarPlay and maps), that’s fine because of the buttons on the wheel.
My current car isn’t great - it has “lane assist” which turns itself back on every time you start, and is in a menu system to disable (albeit two physical buttons to press). rentals I’ve had recently just have a physical button near the gearstick which your turn off once and it stays off)
It’s a minefield buying a car and ensuring you get all the right features (a key, a spare wheel, physical buttons for controls)
Re: Bring Back Our Knobs: Analog vs. Digital (2009)
#176Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Whereas with Auto, you literally never know what you're going to get. It's not on conscious level - everybody thinks their Auto A/C it's awesome. Until you watch their actual sub-conscious behaviour on a drive. Honest question: do you really see people touch the level of their ac during a drive? Auto is actual temperature control. The system tries to stay at the set temperature. It’s a lot more comfortable that hav…
>>Honest question: do you really see people touch the level of their ac during a drive? Honest answer, not fudged for sake of making a point - Yes. Absolutely. I don't know if hyper-expensive luxury vehicles do better, but I can vouch that my wife has been frequently changing in our 2012 Kia Sportage, 2016 RAV4, and now 2019 Honda Odyssey. I've observed others do so frequently in Toyota Corolla, Honda Civiv, Subaru C…
> Perhaps it's just psychological. If I'm feeling cold, I don't trust the system and I turn it up. If I'm feeling warm, I want it colder faster. If it's -10C outside, I'll turn it up to 24C even though it may not get me warmer than if I just left it at 21C. Then it gets 24C and I'm hot. This may be just a case of humans using good system badly.
If they use linear control that would actually help a bit.
What I would like is a range on the temperature. If it's between 17-21, don't bother wasting energy on getting it cooler or warmer.
Re: Bring Back Our Knobs: Analog vs. Digital (2009)
#177Earlier quoted context omitted.
On that note, my wife either sets to the absolute minimum (60F) or max (80F) and alternates between the two extremes as she inevitably becomes too hot or too cold with one of those settings. I've tried my best to help her understand the insanity of it, but no luck yet. I think it's actually a throwback to the days when there was just red and blue to indicate gradually larger amounts of hot or cold.
The alternating all the way is a little insane but I can kind of understand because the old UI of heat or AC level knob is more intuitive . When I first get in a 40F car I don’t want to set it to 72 or whatever I just want max heat I can get as soon a possible while knowing my 72 is meaningless until the engine warms up. I don’t trust my car to use max heat until exactly 72 so I set it all the way to 80 then back off…
Doesn’t it work like your home thermostat for the 80s - heat is on until temperature sensor equals 73, then heat is off until temperature sensor less than 71
Re: Bring Back Our Knobs: Analog vs. Digital (2009)
#178My dream -- Physical knobs and buttons (preferably with universal indicators of current state) for mic mute/unmute, camera on/off, volume. Laptops can have either built in or a usb/wireless accessory. Mobiles also need physical buttons if not knobs. Edit to add: A raspberry pi zero or less and commodity buttons / dials in a well designed case should easily work for this. I know some streamdeck projects exist but not…
Additionally I would like knurling on the knobs and muted musical tones to provide feedback, not the blaring monotonous beeps of today. Star Trek TNG was wrong about the desirability of flat screen interfaces but right about audible feedback.
TNG designers (Sternbach, Okida) waved it away by saying the touchscreens had tactile interfaces that reconfigured based on the interface/user. Best of both worlds.
Re: Bring Back Our Knobs: Analog vs. Digital (2009)
#179Earlier quoted context omitted.
The alternating all the way is a little insane but I can kind of understand because the old UI of heat or AC level knob is more intuitive . When I first get in a 40F car I don’t want to set it to 72 or whatever I just want max heat I can get as soon a possible while knowing my 72 is meaningless until the engine warms up. I don’t trust my car to use max heat until exactly 72 so I set it all the way to 80 then back off…
> I don’t trust my car to use max heat until exactly 72 so I set it all the way to 80 then back off. I've done the same in rentals but have always wondered if that helps. Shouldn't the car try to get the heat to 72 as fast as possible?
Yes, but it's actually not that simple. If it blasts too hard there's the chance it will have to start cooling.
I suspect cars use linear control for heating and cooling, it's easy to implement and well understood. In that case it will not use max heat until it reaches the target and turning it to max could get you there faster.
It's actually really not a simple problem, look into control theory of you're interested.
Re: Bring Back Our Knobs: Analog vs. Digital (2009)
#180Earlier quoted context omitted.
Recently rented a small-ish Ford (a Puma) which had physical control for almost everything you'd want to adjust while driving, though the touchscreen was pretty crap (and didn't duplicate most of the physical controls, which I didn't mind). Also it had one of those infuriating pseudo-analog control wheels, where you can keep spinning and spinning the wheel with no effect once it reaches either end of its selection co…
My 2014 Mercedes has a clicky wheel/joystick combo with a menu system that doesn't wrap around, and it's excellent. I can always go to any item without looking because I know that 5up and 5left will go to the start of the menu (even if I don't remember which menu item I left it on, though it's almost always the music tab) and then I can navigate with the clicky wheel. No other controls, but very easy to use without l…
> My 2014 Mercedes has a clicky wheel/joystick combo with a menu system that doesn't wrap around, and it's excellent. I can always go to any item without looking because I know that 5up and 5left will go to the start of the menu (even if I don't remember which menu item I left it on, though it's almost always the music tab) and then I can navigate with the clicky wheel.
Sure for a menu system control it makes complete sense. But the control I was talking about is completely specialised with a discrete number of steps, in that case having a wheel with proper stops is much more convenient.
Also I misremembered, the headlamp mode was a wheel but one with proper stops, it was the selector for the ventilation throughput which didn't have stops and would just spin forever. And the modern peugeot I've driven have that for the drive mode selector (e.g. eco / normal / sport / whatever).