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Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

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Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

#121

Post by jjav »

pwthornton wrote: post #31

One of the things that causes littering is a lack of trash cans or a lack of non-filled trash cans. Not all littering (or throwing recycling in the trash) is done out of pure malice. If you make it easy for people to throw trash out, they generally will. If you make it hard to throw trash out, many will litter. Stronger fines and other enforcement would help, but the first thing is to make sure that you actually have…

> One of the things that causes littering is a lack of trash cans or a lack of non-filled trash cans.

Yes, surely a primary cause. There are areas without trashcans anywhere. Which is so insane. As public policy it seems obvious to maximize trashcans everywhere to make it convenient to keep it clean.

The vast majority of people aren't out to be filthy, but humans are also lazy. To keep a city clean, make sure there is a trashcan within sight at all times no matter where you are, and nearly everyone will use them and keep things clean. Remove trashcans and lots of people will give up and litter.

Same issue with public toilets. Make them available everywhere and nearly everyone will use them, everyone is happy. Take them away and the inevitable consequence is obvious, what else are people going to do.

Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

#122

Post by disneygibson »

pwthornton wrote: post #31

One of the things that causes littering is a lack of trash cans or a lack of non-filled trash cans. Not all littering (or throwing recycling in the trash) is done out of pure malice. If you make it easy for people to throw trash out, they generally will. If you make it hard to throw trash out, many will litter. Stronger fines and other enforcement would help, but the first thing is to make sure that you actually have…

Tokyo has very few trash cans yet not much litter. It’s a cultural problem, not an engineering or city planning one.

Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

#123

Post by saulpw »

wolverine876 wrote: post #118
shlurpy wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Food and shelter clearly aren't solved by the free market, or malnutrition and homelessness wouldn't be so prevelant. It just moves the problem to someone or somewhere else, and has to be augmented by public funds to keep the problems from exploding. And transportation isn't even close to a free market... when is the last time you traveled somewhere entirely on private unsubsidized infrastructure? You can't even leav…

> Food and shelter clearly aren't solved by the free market ... That's shifting the goalposts and not what I said. They are mostly solved (along with other issues) by free markets. Most people get their food and shelter that way, and the market generates most of the wealth needed to feed and shelter the others.

The community problem--of how the "rest" of the people get their food/shelter/transportation--is not solved via markets. "Most" isn't good enough. "Most" of the sidewalks in SF don't have feces on them. So with the free market approach, you could already say there isn't actually a problem.

Free markets have a great time servicing 80% of the people with 20% of the resources and then pocketing the rest of the resources as profit. Community solutions need to be able to service 100% of the community. It's like the "last mile" problem of economics. "Sorry, it's not profitable for the police to protect your neighborhood" is unacceptable.

Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

#124

Post by mensetmanusman »

throaway46546 wrote: post #41
another_story wrote: post #4

In Taiwan the locals, usually the elderly, sweep and clean near their own houses or the parks where they congregate. Some do it as part of a neighborhood group, while others clean parks and areas near temples for religious reasons. Good way to build community. On another note, let people read without pop-ups please.

I gave up cleaning the trash in my apartment courtyard as certain neighbors took it as an invitation to dump ever increasing amounts of trash (including entire kitchen sized trash bags) knowing "someone" would pick it up. Sometimes you just can't win.

This is exactly the tragedy of the commons.

Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

#125

Post by mensetmanusman »

satvikpendem wrote: post #90
_dain_ wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

okay, how about we put up billboards saying >When you smash a window to rob a store, be careful not to cut yourself on the glass. Wear thick gloves. after all, a billboard is not going to stop a burglar, is it? and if we're going to have burglaries, it's better that the burglars don't injure themselves while committing their crimes, because after all it will reduce the burden on hospitals. it will also protect the st…

Addiction is a physiological disease. Burglary is not. You cannot compare them just because they are both crimes, as they have different causes. Those that burgle choose to do so (and yes, their circumstances may lead them to do so, such as poverty) but those who are addicted cannot really choose, their body demands that they abuse the substance.

Many burglers are addicts trying to get resources to satisfy their body’s demand though.

Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

#127

Post by 8note »

Bluecobra wrote: post #81
spoonjim wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a terrible workaround, now your neighborhood is non walkable.

I live in a quiet suburban neighborhood that has no sidewalks and it’s very walkable.

Do you walk to work and to the grocery store?

Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

#128

Post by 8note »

wolverine876 wrote: post #56
saulpw wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great question. Maybe markets aren't a functional solution to problems of public commons? I can't think of a community problem where a market-based solution even helped, let alone solved the problem.

> I can't think of a community problem where a market-based solution even helped, let alone solved the problem. While I agree that the market isn't the panacea and God it's portrayed to be, I didn't understand the GP that way. Your point goes much too far the other way. Most of most community problems are solved by 'free' markets, including food (most food is bought and sold in the market), much of transportation (ca…

Food at least is solved by government subsidies and safety regulation. The market aspects are tacked on at the end to appease the rich who want priority over the poor when getting the best quality food

Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

#129

Post by 8note »

kjksf wrote: post #85
baybal2 wrote: post #34

I advice HN readers to go, and to participate. Besides actually cleaning the streets, it brings very big spotlight to the problem. And in some rare cases, if activity like this may go viral, some people in charge of public sanitation might remember of the shame enough to do their work.

When the city and the state stops taking 50%+ of my money, I'll start cleaning the streets (or, more likely, will pay for someone to clean them). San Francisco 2020 budget is ~$13 billion ( https://londonbreed.medium.com/san-franciscos-budget-how-it-... ) This is the money that is supposed to pay for cleaning the streets and many more things. For comparison, Austin budget is $4.5 billion ( https://www.kvue.com/articl…

You're responsible for what your government does too. If it's squandering money, make it spend better.

It's as competent as the work you put in to make it competent

Re: Clean Streets: People taking San Francisco’s trash into their own hands

#130

Post by sagarm »

wolverine876 wrote: post #52
starwind wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what happens when people just vote for their party for local government—politicians don't have good ideas or successful policies cause they don't have to to stay in office

How do local SF elections work? Are they partisan? If so, aren't the primaries where the real action is, often with plenty of choices?

SF has ranked choice voting for local seats, no primary. Anyone willing to put an (R) next to their name doesn't have a serious chance, because they're clearly just out of step with the city.

In practice elections are often quite competitive between the two major Democratic factions: moderates and progressives. Right now the mayor (Breed), state reps (Weiner, Chiu), and congressional rep (Pelosi) are moderates. The board of sups is 6-3 prog dominated, partially due to Breed becoming mayor and her seat being lost to apartment-tax Preston.

There's a shuffle happening right now due to the downstream consequences of Harris becoming VP that will result in Chiu's seat being taken by prog-allied Haney or Campos (no viable moderate is running, I believe). The rest of the progs support Campos though, so Haney is shifting toward moderate positions (e.g. supporting housing approvals) to improve his chances.

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