Live data from Hacker News

LLVM relicensing update and call for help

blog.llvm.org

51–60 of 198 posts

Re: LLVM relicensing update and call for help

#51
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Developers are scared away by lGPL. I see GPL as a sign of quality and am attracted by projects using it. It's a promise nobody will ever take that thing away from me once I've started using it. I'm a developer, by the way. :-) Edit: Not to mention that some people even using GCC, Linux and Java.

Out of curiosity, how does the GPL promise that versus the other common open source licenses? E.g MIT, BSD or Apache?

As I understand it:

MIT code can be freely taken into proprietary fork, with software modified and sold and no patches contributed.

Not sure how often it happens? Has it actually happened and is it a plausible attack? Nowadays at least AGPL is needed to defang "and we will sell it as service rather than selling software" workaround for GPL.

Re: LLVM relicensing update and call for help

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zero clause MIT or BSD or the Unlicense are seemingly the only licenses that protect from the tyranny of copyleft licenses.

Why do you call copyleft "tyranny"? If overnight, every single piece of open source software were somehow magically relicensed to AGPLv3 only, would there be any negative consequences at all for anyone besides people who wanted to write non-free software?

> besides people who wanted to write non-free software?

Would there be any negative consequences besides the negative consequences? No, I guess not.

Lots of people want to write non-free software, for instance for their jobs or businesses or hobbies.

Re: LLVM relicensing update and call for help

#53
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Developers are scared away by lGPL. I see GPL as a sign of quality and am attracted by projects using it. It's a promise nobody will ever take that thing away from me once I've started using it. I'm a developer, by the way. :-) Edit: Not to mention that some people even using GCC, Linux and Java.

Out of curiosity, how does the GPL promise that versus the other common open source licenses? E.g MIT, BSD or Apache?

GPL software, and extensions to it, are free and will stay like that.

That can't be said about software under the above mentioned licenses.

Re: LLVM relicensing update and call for help

#54
post #17

Once again the FSF is shown to be prescient. Their copyright assignment policy completely eliminates this problem.

It eliminates this problem by creating another one. That you need to jump through a couple of hoops before you contribute. It is arguable which method is better.

And you need to trust project and future project controllers far more.

Re: LLVM relicensing update and call for help

#55
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, how does the GPL promise that versus the other common open source licenses? E.g MIT, BSD or Apache?

GPL software, and extensions to it, are free and will stay like that. That can't be said about software under the above mentioned licenses.

I'm not sure how the GPL guarantees that it will stay like that anymore than those other licenses?

You can always relicense GPL content as long as everyone agrees. You can also change it to source on request versus always accessible.

Re: LLVM relicensing update and call for help

#56
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I can find online, this is an edge case that's unlikely to ever be relevant. Dutch law allows the voiding of licenses after "unreasonably long" terms. One suspects that it would be hard to show that a term is unreasonably long when you're talking about a contribution to open source software. In Poland, there's a limit of five years, on the author's wish, with one year's notice. Fair enough, a Polish contrib…

I don't think you've quite understood the risk, here. > Fair enough, a Polish contributor might possibly demand that their code be taken out of a projects with a year's notice. It seems unlikely that many Polish devs will exercise this right, since, if their contributions are significant, it would probably result in blacklisting, and if not significant, it would probably not be worth it. But I suppose it could happen…

> This is the same for Australian developers.

I don't see any sign of this being the case in my searching. This document (https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=628b5bca-b7d5...) suggests that Australia does recognize perpetual licenses ("Does the law in your jurisdiction recognise the validity of ‘perpetual’ software licences? ... Yes."). Would you provide a citation?

> For example, it is conceivable that someone who has contributed to a large project, say... Linux, has an issue with one particular corporation who have been found to acting unethically, say... Google. They can revoke the right to use their contributions to the Linux kernel by Google. They don't have to supply a reason for it.

As noted above, I'm skeptical that this right exists in Australia. But if it does, the worst that would happen is that a person's contributions would need to be removed from Linux. There are probably a handful of individuals who own the copyright to their works whose contributions would be difficult to replace, but most of them probably have sufficient economic or other incentives not to do something like what you're describing. That vast majority of new code written in Linux is written by employees of large corporations and isn't subject to this risk the same way.

> This is thus far untested in court

To say the least. It seems likely to me that courts in many jurisdictions would decide that an open source bait and switch was not what their corresponding legislatures had in mind when drafting license reversion rules. This risk seems unlikely to me, because you'd need a dev with plenty of wealth to pay lawyers, who also really hates some company beyond any practical economic extent, and also contributed a lot to Linux as a private individual. I don't know how many of that type of person you're going to find.

Re: LLVM relicensing update and call for help

#57
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see GPL as a sign of quality Personal opinion is that BSD > GPL. Free as in properly free. I always donate to BSD license folks. When corporations use BSD software, they usually get engaged in the BSD community - under the stilts of management, suited lawyers and spreadsheet bean counters, it's just us programmer folk... you know. We like tinkering things and BSD software tends to have a different philosophy. Ver…

This is a matter of hot debate, and I don't want to trigger such discussion. AFAIU it is a bit of perspective of where the freedom is. With BSD there's more 'freedom' to incorporate with proprietary code, which eases commercialization. Companies like it better because of that and are likelier contributors. With GPL, while you can still monetize your code, protects the freedom of the Commons better by preventing the p…

Yeah, agree it is hotly debated and not worth discussing further. I've recently been bitten by GPL and it's fresh on my mind how insidious it can be. That said, I work in commercial environment where BSD-licensed software is highly regarded.

Re: LLVM relicensing update and call for help

#58

It was a good idea to post this to HN. Back when I was an LLVM contributor I was using an email address from a provider who is no longer around. I had no idea that the LLVM maintainers were trying to get a hold of me. There's probably a lot of overlap between LLVM contributors and HN readers.

Which provider? What was their domain name?

Re: LLVM relicensing update and call for help

#59

I opened the spreadsheet, and now I can't remove it from my list of Google Sheets (unlike most shared spreadsheets). Am I missing some obscure way to remove it, despite the Remove option being grayed out? (It does respect the "Owned by me" filter so this isn't the end of the world.)

https://jakebinstein.com/blog/google-drive-remove-option-gra... > The right-click menu option with the trash can symbol can’t be clicked, but dragging the file over to the trash can works just fine.

Thank you!

Re: LLVM relicensing update and call for help

#60

Racket had to do this to go from lGPL to Mit, it was a long process. But they did it to make the language more accessible to developers. Developers are scared away by lGPL. Not all contributions were relicensed (resulting in code being rewritten), and we lost some code in the standard library (the csv parser). Now Racket is trying to make it more friendly to people by created a new language (called Rhombus for now) t…

Many major corporations (like, say, IBM) have no problem with LGPL. Where did you find a bunch of developers who thought it was a problem?
Post reply on HN