TheNFTBay: Fake, but Worth Discussing • Hacker News Board

Re: TheNFTBay: Fake, but Worth Discussing

#151

Post by gfodor » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 11:00 PM UTC

Volundr wrote: post #144

gfodor wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that doesn’t meet my requirement above. Nothing does, because Meta doesn’t impose the constraint I am talking about: it was a hypothetical example to try to convey to you the dynamics going on regarding NFTs that you seem to think you fully understand.

Isn't that the point though? Every time I try to figure out the value of this thing called an "NFT" I can find plenty of hypotheticals, but I've yet to encounter anything concrete. Using your example you want to be the only one who can use this "thing" in Meta Horizon. Cool, but that's something Meta Horizon has to implement, and they don't need some weird blockchain thingy to do it. If someone buys an NFT what good…

I used meta because I assumed you’d be aware of what I was referring to instead of cryptovoxels, sommium space, or webaverse. If you grant that the meta example would be useful if it exists, then we’d just be haggling over if eg cryptovoxels has enough analogous utility to pull it into the set of things you consider worthy.

Re: TheNFTBay: Fake, but Worth Discussing

#152

Post by gfodor » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 11:01 PM UTC

zepto wrote: post #139

gfodor wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, an NFT is not a pair but a tuple. The third part of the tuple is the third party who issued the NFT. In the case of the Brooklyn Bridge, the NFTs I expect that would confer social status in the metaverse regarding the bridge would be ones issued by the City of New York or perhaps the descendants of the original architects. This will probably actually happen in some form but it will be a while. If you’re talking a…

It’s reasonable to assert that NFT’s are about conferring social status in the metaverse. I.e. they are in-game currency. People are ‘hung up’ on analogies to physical ownership, because proponents of NFT’s keep claiming they are like deeds of ownership, which is what the linked article strongly asserted before it was amended. If NFT advocates stopped calling it ownership, I don’t think anyone would be hung up about…

I agree a lot is lost in the noise due to presumption about what the other side means when they’re using “ownership.”

Re: TheNFTBay: Fake, but Worth Discussing

#153

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 11:03 PM UTC

shiohime wrote: post #149

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's pretty simple really. You just seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what an NFT actually is. People keep saying this, but I'm pretty sure I know what it is. But what I'm asking is: what in god's name is it actually good for, other than scams? > Just because there is a ton of hype in the technology and people are making get quick rich schemes left and right with really low effort collections, please d…

The best way I can describe my project to you is the difference between owning a room and owning a picture of a room. You cannot enter the room, only see it from a static angle based on the picture. This is the fundamental difference between what my project can do and what a static image does. My service does not interact with the PNG, it interacts with the space that my program generated, and took a picture of. The…

> The best way I can describe my project to you is the difference between owning a room and owning a picture of a room. You cannot enter the room, only see it from a static angle based on the picture.

You already said this, and as I mentioned you do not need, nor can I see why anyone would want, a decentralized trustless blockchain-backed token for this.

> To do this in web2 infra, like I said, is a much more complicated problem and would involve probably non-user friendly DRM.

No it wouldn't, it just requires certificates and maybe accounts if you want a backup in case people lose their certificates. Or you could use the accounts without the certificates. Millions and millions of services provide "access to a virtual room" or the equivalent already today without ever touching a blockchain.

Besides which, what are you describing if not Digital Rights Management? Don't pretend that NFTs aren't the same damn artificial scarcity nonsense in a hip new garb.

> You can write off my project as a get rich quick scheme, but that is from a point of ignorance from someone that probably hasn't tried to create something on their own and market it.

I have, and I wasn't any good at it, but that's irrelevant. The point is that the only reason you seem to want to use an NFT is so you can get paid for it, presumably because NFTs are hip and sexy and traditional infrastructure doing the same thing for millions of online services isn't. You're praying on people falling for the hype.

You have not explained specifically in what ways an NFT gives you a better ability to do what you're doing than traditional solutions, other than to simply assert that it does.

> I don't really care about your opinion on if you think I'm trying to make money for providing a product.

I don't bemoan people trying to make money on a product. But I do, in fact, look down on people trying to take advantage of a hype bubble and push FOMO by pretending like it is some kind of revolution.

Re: TheNFTBay: Fake, but Worth Discussing

#154

Post by GDC7 » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 11:08 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #138

GDC7 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In other words, the replica might be 0.99999999999% similar, but people are apparently willing to pay millions for the remaining 0.00000000001% This is wrong. People (as in regular people) aren't willing to pay millions, they are willing however to spend 20/50/100 dollars to go an see it in person at the museum vs. googling an image of it. All for that 0.0000000000001% Consumers decided that for some pieces of art…

>This is wrong. People (as in regular people) aren't willing to pay millions "regular people" aren't paying hundreds of thousands for NFTs either. >they are willing however to spend 20/50/100 dollars to go an see it in person at the museum vs. googling an image of it. All for that 0.0000000000001% >Consumers decided that for some pieces of art it is worth to spend some amount of dollars to go and see it once, in pers…

> I alluded to this before, but the alternate explanation is that they're not going to the museum because it offers the best fidelity, they're doing so for other reasons (eg. social clout)

What % of social media posts are museum oriented? We are talking 0 percent.... it's only a matter of seeing what's the first decimal point.

Regardless, it seems to me that there is a lack of common sense among the NFT crowd, and you seem to be somehow on the same wavelenght.

The vast majority of people who right-click an NFT image have subsequently no desire to acquire said NFT. And if a museum were to start charging for an NFT collections, people would not pay to get in.

The vast majority of people who right-click an image of the Mona Lisa do have a desire to one day go out and see the painting in person as they think it would be a cool thing to do and would pay for it.

There is a clear difference, at least for people who have common sense.

Given that museums have existed for hundreds of years and have generated trillions of dollars in revenues, the burden of the proof is on NFTs, not the other way around.

When NFTs museums (either virtual or real) will open up then it will be possible to make a comparison.

Re: TheNFTBay: Fake, but Worth Discussing

#155

Post by shiohime » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 11:12 PM UTC

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #153

shiohime wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best way I can describe my project to you is the difference between owning a room and owning a picture of a room. You cannot enter the room, only see it from a static angle based on the picture. This is the fundamental difference between what my project can do and what a static image does. My service does not interact with the PNG, it interacts with the space that my program generated, and took a picture of. The…

> The best way I can describe my project to you is the difference between owning a room and owning a picture of a room. You cannot enter the room, only see it from a static angle based on the picture. You already said this, and as I mentioned you do not need, nor can I see why anyone would want, a decentralized trustless blockchain-backed token for this. > To do this in web2 infra, like I said, is a much more complic…

Really man, if you think that me charging $20 for a unique product that you actually don't know anything about other than the few sentences I've explained here to you is preying on people, I don't care to bother discussing this any further. You're entitled to your opinions of course, but do note that I'm trying to provide a creative art project that would have been much more of a pain in the ass to create in web 2.

Please, just believe me when I say that I'm an engineer that is exploring the space to try and do something independent and something I personally find cool. If I wanted to make money quick, I would have made a shitty PFP apes collection 3 months ago and charged half an ETH per mint. I decided to try and create a unique product, and also explore an emerging space.

Re: TheNFTBay: Fake, but Worth Discussing

#156

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 11:17 PM UTC

shiohime wrote: post #155

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The best way I can describe my project to you is the difference between owning a room and owning a picture of a room. You cannot enter the room, only see it from a static angle based on the picture. You already said this, and as I mentioned you do not need, nor can I see why anyone would want, a decentralized trustless blockchain-backed token for this. > To do this in web2 infra, like I said, is a much more complic…

Really man, if you think that me charging $20 for a unique product that you actually don't know anything about other than the few sentences I've explained here to you is preying on people, I don't care to bother discussing this any further. You're entitled to your opinions of course, but do note that I'm trying to provide a creative art project that would have been much more of a pain in the ass to create in web 2. P…

> Please, just believe me

Yeah, see, this is why I can't take you seriously. Everything I ask for an explanation on is all "trust me bro, I can't explain because um...". Yeah, that's how scammers talk, buddy. You can't even tell me why and how are NFTs better than the alternatives. That seems like something any engineer should be able to do: explain the merits and reasoning behind their choices. I can only see two possibilities: You don't want to admit the answer, or you don't know the answer. You seem like a reasonably intelligent person, so I can only assume the former.

If you just use an NFT because you think it is cool, fine, whatever. Just don't go pretending it is revolutionary when you can't back up that assertion with any kind of explanation.

Re: TheNFTBay: Fake, but Worth Discussing

#157

Post by capableweb » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 11:20 PM UTC

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #147

capableweb wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but you cannot act within their registry as a independent actor, transferring and receiving items in the registry on your and others will. They own that registry, and they chose to give you access. That's the difference between a centralized registry like that star registry, and a blockchain where every actor has equal access to the "registry". No one can stop you from transferring your NFT to someone else, whil…

Sure, but why would anyone want that? Why would I want to buy and sell access to some entry in a registry that ultimately means nothing?

That's besides the point. Why anything? I'm not gonna pretend to understand high-art, because I don't, but apparently some people see value in it, so who am I to question what they value?

To be honest, I don't see much value in the current Images-as-NFTs hype either, but again, who am I to judge what people spend their money on? I also thought the same about Bitcoin initially, but after a while saw value in it myself too.

When it comes to NFTs as a concept though, I think they can be applied better than what people are currently doing. SaaS licenses that can be resold for example is one interesting use case.

Re: TheNFTBay: Fake, but Worth Discussing

#158

Post by shiohime » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 11:20 PM UTC

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #156

shiohime wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really man, if you think that me charging $20 for a unique product that you actually don't know anything about other than the few sentences I've explained here to you is preying on people, I don't care to bother discussing this any further. You're entitled to your opinions of course, but do note that I'm trying to provide a creative art project that would have been much more of a pain in the ass to create in web 2. P…

> Please, just believe me Yeah, see, this is why I can't take you seriously. Everything I ask for an explanation on is all "trust me bro, I can't explain because um...". Yeah, that's how scammers talk , buddy. You can't even tell me why and how are NFTs better than the alternatives. That seems like something any engineer should be able to do: explain the merits and reasoning behind their choices. I can only see two p…

Literally, just go fuck yourself. You're so completely full of shit I'm tired of interacting with you. At least you live up to your username.

Fuck off.

Re: TheNFTBay: Fake, but Worth Discussing

#159

Post by zepto » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 11:21 PM UTC

gfodor wrote: post #152

zepto wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s reasonable to assert that NFT’s are about conferring social status in the metaverse. I.e. they are in-game currency. People are ‘hung up’ on analogies to physical ownership, because proponents of NFT’s keep claiming they are like deeds of ownership, which is what the linked article strongly asserted before it was amended. If NFT advocates stopped calling it ownership, I don’t think anyone would be hung up about…

I agree a lot is lost in the noise due to presumption about what the other side means when they’re using “ownership.”

This isn’t correct. People outside the ‘community’ are using a long established meaning.

People within the community are using a meaning that has essentially none of the attributes of the conventional definition while claiming that the meaning is the same.

This isn’t a question of two sides disagreeing over meanings. It’s a question of a deceptive use of a very well established pre-existing term.

Re: TheNFTBay: Fake, but Worth Discussing

#160

Post by Volundr » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 11:22 PM UTC

gfodor wrote: post #151

Volundr wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that the point though? Every time I try to figure out the value of this thing called an "NFT" I can find plenty of hypotheticals, but I've yet to encounter anything concrete. Using your example you want to be the only one who can use this "thing" in Meta Horizon. Cool, but that's something Meta Horizon has to implement, and they don't need some weird blockchain thingy to do it. If someone buys an NFT what good…

I used meta because I assumed you’d be aware of what I was referring to instead of cryptovoxels, sommium space, or webaverse. If you grant that the meta example would be useful if it exists, then we’d just be haggling over if eg cryptovoxels has enough analogous utility to pull it into the set of things you consider worthy.

I'm not familiar with any of these, but then I'm not familiar with Meta Horizon either. I'll be the first to admit I'm not up on what the "cool kids" are doing. If it helps feel free to imagine your explaining this to your culturally clueless but technically savvy grandpa.

But looking at these, I'm just not seeing the value that NFTs have provided vs already existing methods. For example I'm looking at https://somniumspace.com/parcel/3402?elv=-0.68. I assume the art on the walls here are NFTs no? And I'd have to be the owner of the NFT if I wanted to take it to my own "parcel"? But what prevents me from simply taking the source image and simply minting my own NFT and displaying it? And why would I want to use a space like this instead of something like Second Life or VR Chat where I can go the much more direct route of simply uploading a PNG?

That's the piece that I have yet to see answered clearly. I certainly get it's technically possible to build something based around NFTs, and given that they are currently trending I'm not in the least bit surprised someone has. I just can't see how it's superior either via ease of use or in technical capability to something that already exists.