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UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

latimes.com

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Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#191

Post by sudosysgen »

rackjack wrote: post #76

In China there is 1 exam, the Gaokao. This exam in no small part decides your future. In the past, you had one attempt, and if you failed, tough luck. Now they let kids retake it a couple times. One exam. One billion people. One standardized metric to determine who goes where. There are flaws to this of course. The rich, with better access to tutoring and such, naturally have an advantage over the poor. But herein li…

Unlike the SAT in California which due to Prop 16 cannot have affirmative action, the Gaokao has affirmative action. That is the biggest difference, and UC was happy with an analogue to the Gaokao.

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#192

Post by Ekaros »

mcherm wrote: post #168
pnutjam wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tests are more easily gamed. It's a tragedy that industries have grown around test prep.

I understand exactly how easy it is to game standardized tests. However, I find that I do not know how easy it is to game grades. Perhaps that is equally easy, or significantly easier. For example, can one "game" high school grades by moving to a different neighborhood with a "better" school?

Standardized tests might be gamed. But still I would argue that gaming them is least worst option. Anything else is either not properly standardized like grades or entirely gamed like extracurriculars, interviews, written works.

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#193

Post by aoki »

hn_go_brrrrr wrote: post #106
jimbob45 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not fuck around in high school and then go get a 4.0 at a semi-prestigious community college?

Except "prestigious" (even "semi-prestigious") and "community college" are mutually exclusive. You may be able to get a satisfactory education at one, depending on the college and the field of study...but prestigious? No way.

this discussion is about UC -- he's talking about the fact that the admission rate for many campuses and majors is actually higher for california CC transfers, with some UC campuses still offering guaranteed admission (TAG) under certain conditions.

i think the "semi-prestigious" refers to the fact that some bay area CCs are known as transfer feeders for Berkeley (which does not have TAG, so you have to be competitive among CC candidates).

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#194

Post by Ekaros »

1cvmask wrote: post #155
yardie wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just possible the ubiquitous SAT was literally created by a white supremacist, Carl Brigham [0]. They are having a moment right now and trying to distance themselves from the racist part of their foundation. > It's possible that standardized tests are biased. Then fix them! We know they are biased but everytime the solution it's brought the solution is to replace them with another biased test. [0] https://ww…

There are plenty of foreign tests around the world where not a single white person was involved in devising them. And they are so so much harder, especially in mathematics, than the SAT. Math tests are universally acknowledged to be neutral, even if hard. Most countries have standardized tests that have a spectrum of subjects covered. If you apply to say engineering only your Math and Science scores matter. If you ap…

In Finland there is single big standardized test. (Actually there is also lower level tests, but those really don't matter). Different subjects have different weights in different programs. Still funnily enough math have two levels. But as the higher level has by far the largest number of class-hours it ends up giving lot of points in any subject.

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#195

Post by throwaway34241 »

angelzen wrote: post #176
throwaway34241 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So the price of this "equity" movement is going to be (and always was) mass de-industrialization and transforming the economy to third world status I also disagree with these sort of decisions but this seems a bit hyperbolic. Certain institutions will probably admit fewer students who are able to excel in those fields, and if the change is large enough it will affect the quality of those degree programs (although i…

"It's hard for me to imagine every single university getting on board with this" Think for a bit how many things that were hard to imagine 10 years ago are now common place in the corporate world. Social conformity pressure is a real b*tch. The best we can hope is that the occasional larger-than-life professor will be left alone to teach his craft the way he sees fit. Pray that your kids have a chance to meet one of…

The corporate world isn't a bad analogy. But corporates are still by and large very profitable, some companies operate as they always have (although that isn't newsworthy, and it isn't a marketing point), and on this specific topic (testing) leetcode type questions are still ubiquitous.

If social trends seriously impaired companies' competitiveness I might expect to see the companies that are more on board underperform. But when I think of recent corporate failures (maybe Google failing to compete with FB on chat / VR / Google plus etc), garden variety mismanagement still seems like it has more impact.

So I also disagree with the policy, but worrying about "transforming the economy to third world status" like the OP seems like it is going overboard. If suboptimal policy choices or social trends destroyed society it would have been destroyed a long time ago many times over (and San Francisco wouldn't be a startup hub).

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#196

Post by Ekaros »

zenta wrote: post #127

The comments on these articles seem to generally come out in favor of standardized testing (specifically the SAT). I find that interesting because college admissions seemingly generalizes to candidate evaluation. And if you were to suggest a standard leetcode test for software engineering job candidates? Man, this place would go up in flames.

Singular leetcode exam with large enough cohort repeated let's say twice a year and then graded on curve done in reasonably secure and controlled testing center would seem pretty reasonable alternative. Do it one time, get high enough grade and then use it for rest of your career.

It starts to sound pretty enticing. Essentially a certification that at least one time you performed at certain level. Ofc, verification is bit more complicated, but not impossible anymore.

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#197

Post by Ekaros »

ngc248 wrote: post #105
lokar wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying the racial demographics of students who score above 1010 are very different from that of all graduating students who intend to go on to post secondary education, and that fact would be politically unacceptable?

No, what he is saying is that preparing for the SAT (or any competitive exam) is like an arms race. Immigrants from asia (where it is already hyper-competitive and the population is more) will be determined and over-prepare and clear the SAT with high scores. It is like "knowing is half the battle". This will fill all the classes with asians, that is why you read about all of the ivy league's etc having a different c…

>how do you make sure that admissions are balanced.

I have never understood why the admission should be balanced? In my mind it should be absolute pure meritocracy. If you don't score high enough, try again until you do or accept institution with lower requirements. Meritocracy is the fairest system overall.

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#198

Post by angelzen »

throwaway34241 wrote: post #195
angelzen wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's hard for me to imagine every single university getting on board with this" Think for a bit how many things that were hard to imagine 10 years ago are now common place in the corporate world. Social conformity pressure is a real b*tch. The best we can hope is that the occasional larger-than-life professor will be left alone to teach his craft the way he sees fit. Pray that your kids have a chance to meet one of…

The corporate world isn't a bad analogy. But corporates are still by and large very profitable, some companies operate as they always have (although that isn't newsworthy, and it isn't a marketing point), and on this specific topic (testing) leetcode type questions are still ubiquitous. If social trends seriously impaired companies' competitiveness I might expect to see the companies that are more on board underperfo…

Post-stalinist Soviet Union, while not manically murderous, eventually imploded under the weight of a myriad suboptimal policy choices. Alas, it took 40 years to do so. There is a lot of inertia, I don't think anyone is arguing that UC (or Google) will collapse next year, but that the weight of poor policy choices compounds over time.

Re "mass de-industrialization", there is a historical reference, specifically the complete bankruptcy of ex Soviet block industry in the '90s, being sold for pennies to Western investors to bulldoze it and build something else in its place. I don't have a crystal ball, but I do wonder how US/China rivalry will play out in the 2040s and beyond.

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#199

Post by Banana699 »

yardie wrote: post #148
reactspa wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way to be color-blind is standardized tests. It's possible that standardized tests are biased. Then fix them! I didn't have rich parents. So I had never gone abroad. A rich parent can send their kids on "charity missions" to poor countries to rack up those "extra curricular points".

It's not just possible the ubiquitous SAT was literally created by a white supremacist, Carl Brigham [0]. They are having a moment right now and trying to distance themselves from the racist part of their foundation. > It's possible that standardized tests are biased. Then fix them! We know they are biased but everytime the solution it's brought the solution is to replace them with another biased test. [0] https://ww…

>It's not just possible the ubiquitous SAT was literally created by a white supremacist, Carl Brigham

Literally the genetic fallacy.

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#200

Post by mrjangles »

rsj_hn wrote: post #67
mrjangles wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree and not even remotely jokingly. Higher education outside of STEM has been nonsense for quite some time. Inside of STEM, it has been an outdated form of education for just as long. The encroachment of socialism into the educational sphere needs to accelerate . The sooner it destroys itself the better.

That's great if your only requirement is to train software developers to write CRUD apps - you can learn to do that by watching youtube videos, reading self-study materials, and taking MOOC classes - but if you want mechanical engineers, chemical engineers, electrical engineers, and be a leader in materials science or chip manufacturing, then you still need universities. So the price of this "equity" movement is goin…

I learned absolutely nothing in my degree that I couldn't have learned from a book. In fact, everything I learned in my degree was from a book. The lecturers themselves were often terrible, and the lectures would have been far better if I was watching them on youtube and could rewind anyway.

The future learning institutes will simply be places that administers tests and organize group projects at 1/10th the cost of current universities.

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