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UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

latimes.com

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Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#181

Post by ThinkBeat »

There are a lot of problems with this approach and a regression in methodology. There are inherent problems with a standardized test and any form of exam. Yet they are the best we have so far.

Ideally, I think everyone should be allowed into the university.

I have several friends who did poorly in high school. Back then they wanted to have fun, party, and were not interested in academic achievement.

Once they got older, they decided to go back to school. They had to study hard and retake a lot of high school exams to get to the university.

One woman is a somewhat famous and well respected lawyer. One is an electrical engineer with a great job. One architect, and the last one a psychologist.

They all had the "intelligence" / endurance to do well academically they just did not follow the same schedules.

People who did not do so well in high school but have passing grades can really perk up at the university.

Of course, if you lot everyone in, most will fail. The distribution of who fails and who does not might surprise people.

However, we do not have limitless resources to allow everyone who wants to a shot in whatever field they feel like. There is not enough physical space, there are not enough professors and teachers, nor labs etc

Basing entry on standardized merit is in my opinion, the best we have so far.

I wonder if a future were Batchlor degrees are possible to take online if the system could scale to allow everyone a shot.

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#182

Post by protomyth »

spoonjim wrote: post #179
protomyth wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the US government has 1/4 but some tribes go down to 1/8. If the position / scholarship says decent the tribes have that documentation too. You can get a document that says you are not enrolled but are a descendent of the tribe. If you are talking about the COVID funding, I think some documentation from the tribe that you are 1/8 in would suffice. Also check the tribal constitution and minority business rules o…

Well the blood thing is just a complete nonsense way of assessing oppression/opportunities. Someone who is the child of a full blood Native American who was working as a bartender when she met a white corporate lawyer that she later married and moved to Bethesda lives a completely different life to a child growing up on the reservation. That’s why you’ll find that income-based affirmative action has vastly more suppo…

Well, tribes have their own type of sovereignty in this country and, for the most part, Native Americans moving off reservation has been a disaster, particularly when forced (the suicide rate is extreme).

We live in a country that has special programs for certain races. If those programs continue to exist, then the money / opportunity set aside for Native Americans should actually be used by people provably Native Americans.

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#183

Post by [deleted] »

addicted wrote: post #134
WalterBright wrote: post #40

From their criteria page: https://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/counselors/fres... "Special talents, achievements and awards in a particular field, such as visual and performing arts, communication or athletic endeavors; special skills, such as demonstrated written and oral proficiency in other languages; special interests, such as intensive study and exploration of other cultures; experiences that demonstrate…

I’m curious why we’d expect achievements in STEM at the age of 16/17, when students are applying for college. To keep this in perspective, kids haven’t even taken Science 101 at this point. And the exceptional students who have won Olympiad golds or created open source software, etc, would more than be covered by the “special talents, achievements and awards in any field” section.

[deleted]

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#184

Post by nitrogen »

b9a2cab5 wrote: post #104
nitrogen wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many have been given the opportunity to do so? Could a pure apprenticeship model without universities (but still with lots of theory) work for engineering professions?

Lambda School shows it doesn't work for software engineering. A so-called "apprenticeship" model for something like mechanical engineering would basically be the exact same set of (difficult) math and physics courses but without the garbage breadth requirements, which doesn't exactly sound attractive to dropouts.

without the garbage breadth requirements, which doesn't exactly sound attractive to dropouts.

Idk, I can imagine a class of "dropout" who would find that very appealing.

And I've worked with devs who used Lambda or other bootcamps to transition from another technical/professional career into software, so it's not a completely useless model.

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#185

Post by downrightmike »

droidist2 wrote: post #66
gibbonsrcool wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s separate sports from academics. Sports organizations can exist outside the school. I’m suggesting this for all ages. Players can compete in divisions based on skill without school grouping as a factor. A lot of kids don’t play sports because they’re not competitive enough at their school. With these extra-academic divisions there’s more players for each pool of skill level. Another benefit is connecting people…

I always thought it was weird that colleges have sports teams, then again in Japan companies often have sports teams.

American corps also have sports teams, they just typically run under a shell of a rich guy.

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#186

Post by Auracle »

spoonjim wrote: post #119
Auracle wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 1/8th. Is that enough? 1/4th? Where's the line? My state gave out grants to small businesses during the pandemic and directly said on the application that preference would be given to minorities. I didn't check both white and native only because a local organization would be dispersing the funds and I live in a rural area. Quite frankly, I'm sick of "reverse" racism. That was my state government all but telling m…

> I didn't check both white and native only because a local organization would be dispersing the funds and I live in a rural area. I don’t see the logic. Are you saying that you’d become persona non grata in a small community for claiming these funds?

That was the fear. It didn’t seem worth the risk in today’s climate. I try to keep my business non-political.

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#187

Post by sirspacey »

temp8964 wrote: post #29

I found what is funny / pathetic about this is that there are tons of psychology / education / especially educational measurement top experts in the UC system, and they know how wrong it is, while they just keep mouth shut. The whole anti-standard-testing movement is pushed by ideology leftists and corrupted bureaucrats, but the supposed experts just quietly watch the world burn. Lol. Update: I found experts in the U…

All of this could be true if the test had zero, or even negative, value in measuring the ability to learn & desire to excel.

Picking any test, and curating for those willing to and capable of the work required to pass it, would create this result.

That’s the problem with this justification. It doesn’t have a functional limit.

“DIY University” covered the history of how this mechanic brought down the Ming dynasty in just a couple generations.

Tests can always be justified by non-causal correlation.

Assessments ARE the reason why validated methods of learning, like project based learning, are not widely adopted.

We have copious amounts of evidence now that teaching to the test is both psychologically harmful & reduces the ability to learn.

We will not change our education system until assessments are dethroned.

The movement to end assessment is our only hope as a society to stop teaching children based on archaic & wrong ideas about how we learn & develop work ethic. It is a significant factor in why a generation is experiencing alarmingly destructive levels of anxiety on a daily basis.

We all have a lot to gain by building education programs where students demonstrate what they learn.

Tests are the worst possible option.

Check out “Most Likely To Succeed” for powerful alternatives.

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#188

Post by FormerBandmate »

addicted wrote: post #134
WalterBright wrote: post #40

From their criteria page: https://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/counselors/fres... "Special talents, achievements and awards in a particular field, such as visual and performing arts, communication or athletic endeavors; special skills, such as demonstrated written and oral proficiency in other languages; special interests, such as intensive study and exploration of other cultures; experiences that demonstrate…

I’m curious why we’d expect achievements in STEM at the age of 16/17, when students are applying for college. To keep this in perspective, kids haven’t even taken Science 101 at this point. And the exceptional students who have won Olympiad golds or created open source software, etc, would more than be covered by the “special talents, achievements and awards in any field” section.

Kids with parents in the field can easily accomplish things (with a little help)

Defeats the whole meritocratic element tho, makes you think about the real reason behind this

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#190

Post by Viliam1234 »

chmod600 wrote: post #97

Another way to look at this is, like so many things, a conflict of visions. Vision one is that college is an elite institution meant to bring together smart, rich, and connected people in a learning and growth environment. This is sort of a perti-dish of success. In this vision, standardized tests bring in the smart people to compliment the rich and connected. Vision two is that college is an institution for everyone…

I see a hope here. Educational system seems broken in USA: the costs of education are insanely high, but you need the diploma in order to get a good job, so the costs will keep growing, because why not (from the perspective of the universities). And this perfectly designed system to extract money from everyone... just decided to destroy itself from inside. If universities become stupid enough, so that employers stop preferring people who have a diploma, there will no longer be a reason to pay. The universities can become ideological strongholds for the woke, but most of the population will simply ignore them.

There are a few problems with this hope, though. First, what about research? Second, government can protect universities, regardless of their quality, by requiring a university diploma if you want to work for any public institution.

> Vision two is that college is an institution for everyone to have a chance to get ahead.

Although I like the sentiment, the only way to actually achieve it would be to make the college free and with no admission tests (that is, there is literally a place for everyone, including insane or retarded people). Otherwise, there will still exist criteria that separate the "diploma haves" from the "diploma have nots", only those criteria will be less transparent than now.

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