Live data from Hacker News

UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

latimes.com

161–170 of 235 posts

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#161

I found what is funny / pathetic about this is that there are tons of psychology / education / especially educational measurement top experts in the UC system, and they know how wrong it is, while they just keep mouth shut. The whole anti-standard-testing movement is pushed by ideology leftists and corrupted bureaucrats, but the supposed experts just quietly watch the world burn. Lol. Update: I found experts in the U…

This paragraph made my head spin: >The Smarter Balanced test only provided “modest incremental value” beyond high school grades in predicting a student’s first-year UC performance while “reflecting and reproducing inequality” in educational opportunities for underserved students, committee co-chair Mary Gauvain, a UC Riverside professor, told regents on Thursday. Using the state exam in admissions decisions could ben…

Tests are more easily gamed. It's a tragedy that industries have grown around test prep.

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#162
post #2

UC schools have already become dubious - the entitlement of grads, the actual LACK of skills, not remotely "hungry" enough to have any grit or motivation, etc. My father (an engineering manager) always said: "If you want GOOD employees, you never want to hire from UCB, Stanford, Cal Tech, etc. The best engineers in California come from Cal Poly SLO and Cal Poly Pomona. They are actually trained as engineers". This is…

> They are actually trained as engineers Caltech's engineering program doesn't actually train you to design machines, or how to operate a milling machine, or how to assemble an internal combustion engine. You can certainly get an engineering degree without ever getting grease under your fingernails. What it does do is teach you math. Every class is a math class. Statics, dynamics, newtonian mechanics, thermodynamics,…

> You can certainly get an engineering degree without ever getting grease under your fingernails.

If that’s true for EE, I’m okay with no grease but you better have soldered something (the EE equivalent of a lathe).

If you get a degree in mechanical engineering without ever operating a milling machine and a lathe, I think you should get at least a partial refund.

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#163
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the play? College prep K-8, then move to Fresno for 9-12 so you can be in top 9%?

More likely, hire private tutors while you go to a Title 1 school in Santa Ana or some other impoverished area, then mark yourself as part-Native American and non-binary on your college application. If you can't afford private tutors, well, guess you had the bad luck to be born Asian.

It worked for Elizabeth Warren.

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#164
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know about the ACT, but the SAT in that time period was trivial to study for. I had one Barrons book, and the rest was accomplished by being a student in a public school. There were no surprises come test day. I genuinely don’t understand when people say the SAT is so biased, because it seemed quite fair to me compared to alternative metrics. Unless asking someone to spend a lot of time studying is too much t…

The SAT isn't hard to study for, but the question is, if your dad is in jail (which many of my black friend's dads were), you are feeling uncertain about the world because of the color of your skin, would you put in the effort? I think people look at tests like the one and all, but many kids have other stuff to work out.

I have no problem if a kid in that situation decides to not put in the effort. I also have no problem if decisions to put in more effort yield better outcomes.

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#165

I found what is funny / pathetic about this is that there are tons of psychology / education / especially educational measurement top experts in the UC system, and they know how wrong it is, while they just keep mouth shut. The whole anti-standard-testing movement is pushed by ideology leftists and corrupted bureaucrats, but the supposed experts just quietly watch the world burn. Lol. Update: I found experts in the U…

I have a friend that’s a CSU faculty member in science/engineering. The amount of ideological crap coming down the pipeline is shocking to him… and he’s a pretty liberal guy. But he has a mortgage to pay and dealing with protesting students doesn’t really interest him. He became a professor because he liked teaching, not to become a target.

Social narratives change with the generations.

Surely he can still teach people.

What did everyone expect when all technical knowledge of humanity is on YouTube? That the next generation would pay for knowledge historically artificially restricted to those who were financially viable?

The historical origins of college degrees are for rich aristocrats to buy secular degrees, even if they were meaningless, as the public lost faith in claims of divine intervention that gave kings and their heirs power. Secular gibberish the rubes could not falsify.

Why does a supposedly secular grand narrative mean anything when there is no root node of the universe?

Are facts of science untrue if they’re not discovered in an ivory tower administrated by helicopter parents?

The social narrative to break is being labeled a farmer or senator for life. Why should rich first worlders be a afforded stability their nation takes from others?

Tough luck, fellow Americans. But you aren’t the center of jack squat and it’s your own inventions and entitlement that brought you down. Just how it goes. Your narratives are not sacrosanct.

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#166

>a student’s high school grade-point average, the rigor of courses taken, special talents, essays and extracurricular activities. All of these metrics seem MUCH more gameable than the SAT. Sure, buying an SAT practice test book might bump your score up by 20 points. But if you look at the rigor of courses available, that is going to vary DRASTICALLY from school to school. At least when I was in high school, poorer sc…

That's the point. UC wants to implement affirmative action but can't because voters rejected Prop 16. So they do this to make it easier to justify that their target demographics are "qualified" because now there's no objective measurement metric to judge people by.

I can’t believe how much it feels like 1984. “War is peace.”

‘University of California Regents Chair John Perez said, "The failure of Proposition 16

[repealing that the government and public institutions cannot discriminate against or grant preferential treatment to persons on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin in public employment, public education, and public contracting.]

means barriers will remain in place to the detriment of many students, families and California at large. We will not accept inequality on our campuses and will continue addressing the inescapable effects of racial and gender inequity."’

https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_16,_Repeal_Pr...

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#167
post #138
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Three wrongs don't make a right, though.

It's much less wrong than the holistical admission procedure.

FWIW, I've been on graduate admissions committees for many years. Standardized tests work both ways; it really depends on the admissions committee and how they use the test scores. To borrow a phrase, "test scores don't prejudice, people do."

I've seen both sorts of problems.

When test scores are used well, they function the way that some people here see them. They provide another bit of evidence of potential, and can help to provide some signal as to what is going on with someone who might otherwise be underresourced, or facing sociopsychological challenges, or whatever. It's also much harder to score well on a test than to score poorly, so I think that asymmetry is helpful: a mindful admissions committee doesn't hold a less-than-stellar score against someone, but will give credit for an exceptionally high one.

At the same time, I've been in committees where controversies have erupted because of the stereotypical bias situation. There are minorities applying, they have tons of extra-score stuff to attest to their promise, they are coming from ridiculously challenged backgrounds, and they get a middling score, and someone on the committee is arguing that this single score, at a single point in time, should somehow override really high GPAs with challenging courses, volumes of very impressive letters, scores of accomplishments in research and the real world, etc. This is in the context of a program that has lots of experience with disadvantaged students, where you can see that they have this extra "learning the ropes" disadvantage but are equally smart, etc. This is also with committee members who, on paper, seem ultra-woke, but for some reason when it comes to stuff like this become really irrational and ultra-focused on test scores, and come across as highly bigoted.

Anyway, I feel a bit torn in all of this because I've seen both sides of the test score problem and think both sides are right. The problem is that the challenge is really trickier than "are test scores good or bad", the challenge is really about how people in power use them, and that's murkier, and more complex, and fraught with all sorts of obstacles.

The China example is a good one: why have any limits on how often you can take the test? What, really is the basis for that other than some kind of bigotry about human nature? Can people not change? Don't they have rough spots? We're just going to pretend that all those other sources of corruption don't play a role? That tests can't be gamed?

It's not really about the test per se.

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This paragraph made my head spin: >The Smarter Balanced test only provided “modest incremental value” beyond high school grades in predicting a student’s first-year UC performance while “reflecting and reproducing inequality” in educational opportunities for underserved students, committee co-chair Mary Gauvain, a UC Riverside professor, told regents on Thursday. Using the state exam in admissions decisions could ben…

Tests are more easily gamed. It's a tragedy that industries have grown around test prep.

I understand exactly how easy it is to game standardized tests.

However, I find that I do not know how easy it is to game grades. Perhaps that is equally easy, or significantly easier. For example, can one "game" high school grades by moving to a different neighborhood with a "better" school?

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This paragraph made my head spin: >The Smarter Balanced test only provided “modest incremental value” beyond high school grades in predicting a student’s first-year UC performance while “reflecting and reproducing inequality” in educational opportunities for underserved students, committee co-chair Mary Gauvain, a UC Riverside professor, told regents on Thursday. Using the state exam in admissions decisions could ben…

Tests are more easily gamed. It's a tragedy that industries have grown around test prep.

If grade inflation was already a pernicious problem, once any semblance of an objective test is removed, the pressure on HS teachers to grade everyone at A+++++++ will increase even further. We are stunting generations of kids by not offering them any feedback on the quality of their effort.

"Nearly half of American high school students – 47% in the class of 2016 – are graduating with grades ranging from A-plus to A-minus. According to the Department of Education, the average high school grade point average was 2.68 in 1990. By 2016, it had risen to 3.38, with the biggest inflation occurring in private independent schools."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2021/08/24/cla...

Post reply on HN