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I Love Arch, but GNU Guix Is My New Distro

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Re: I Love Arch, but GNU Guix Is My New Distro

#111

Post by jrm4 »

marcan_42 wrote: post #27

> Guix System is an advanced distribution of the GNU operating system. It uses the Linux-libre kernel It's worth pointing out that the linux-libre kernel is developed under the FSF doctrine that "binary blobs are bad unless you can't see them". This has been taken to its logical extreme here, where this Linux fork actively removes security warnings informing users that they need to update their CPU microcode , becaus…

Lobbing a charge like "Arbitrary religious dogma" is pretty much the opposite of a reasoned look at what the goals are here.

I find the approach interesting. The goal of the Free Software folk was never primarily to "provide the best information to the end user," it is to "preserve software freedom." Guix looks like a possible technical path to do that. Will it work? Will it cause harm? I don't know yet.

Either way, the law-slash-tech has always come before "ensuring that it's public-understood and ready" as it should.

Re: I Love Arch, but GNU Guix Is My New Distro

#112

Post by amelius »

detaro wrote: post #46
medo-bear wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

serious question: why is something that is updated without you knowing about it ok?

Same way that it's ok that if you update your distro it fetches newer drivers, a new kernel and patched versions of all the software you installed? Microcode is loaded at runtime, it's not permanently modifying your system.

The question is still: are "magic incantations" in packages ok, considering that they allow the issuer to control your hardware more than if the code was baked into firmware just once?

Also, these packages allow vendors to keep quiet about security issues, because they can silently fix them in the next update.

Re: I Love Arch, but GNU Guix Is My New Distro

#113

Post by grumbel »

kzhukov wrote: post #74
marcan_42 wrote: post #27

> Guix System is an advanced distribution of the GNU operating system. It uses the Linux-libre kernel It's worth pointing out that the linux-libre kernel is developed under the FSF doctrine that "binary blobs are bad unless you can't see them". This has been taken to its logical extreme here, where this Linux fork actively removes security warnings informing users that they need to update their CPU microcode , becaus…

Well, for some people loading an arbitrary binary code without possibility to check what's inside it is a critical security issue as well.

The issue is that the FSF fine with that binary blobs as long as it's stored in ROM, but if it's in RAM, that's bad. To me that is completely backwards. If a driver loads firmware into RAM, that means I have easy access to the blob, can reverse engineer it, update it and change it. If it's ROM that's going to be a lot more difficult or impossible.

Sure it would be nice to have it all Free Software, but then we shouldn't treat hardware as a magic black box we don't care about.

Re: I Love Arch, but GNU Guix Is My New Distro

#114

Post by y4mi »

raverbashing wrote: post #103
kzhukov wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, for some people loading an arbitrary binary code without possibility to check what's inside it is a critical security issue as well.

Yeah. Then these geniuses get bitten by Spectre/Meltdown because they were too scared of running the microcode update. For real. I agree, if that's the position of Guix, I don't want it in my machine.

I doubt that. While the attack was possible on large hosting providers, utilizing the same on workstations or hardmetal and actually get important data was basically impossible.

It had to be fixed, but your thesis that anyone was actually owned by these security issues because they didn't want to apply the mitigation rounds to at most 0.0% with an infinite amount of zeros before a 1.

Re: I Love Arch, but GNU Guix Is My New Distro

#115

Post by grumbel »

assbuttbuttass wrote: post #110

Just an anecdote, I accidentally broke something in my Guix system config but I couldn't figure out how to debug the scheme errors, and I had to reinstall

That's my experience as well. Guix error messages can get quickly completely unreadable, as you are five layers depth into some Scheme macro expansion and wherever that code originally came from that caused the problem is long forgotten by the time the error message is created.

Having a whole system, including the package database, build out of raw Scheme really doesn't feel like a good idea. It sure is flexible, but also really brittle and the performance is quite horrible.

I am currently in the process of switching over to Nix, which handles that all a bit more sanely.

Re: I Love Arch, but GNU Guix Is My New Distro

#116

Post by kaba0 »

onli wrote: post #89
marcan_42 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The line between hardware and software has been heavily blurred in the past 30 years. The FSF continue to draw an arbitrary line where none can be drawn, and then say only one side needs to be Free. Since there is no longer any clear line, this gives them the freedom (ha) to deceptively do so in a way that is convenient to them and makes their followers believe they are getting some kind of special Freedom, when in r…

There is no nuance there. Without free software there is no software freedom. If blobs are allowed at all that is already a measure to have a system that works in practice, but in no way makes it the position against closed software and blobs wrong. The people criticizing the FSF here act as if Stallman were wrong about these issues because he said it back then already. While in reality again and again he was right a…

But you already run a processor with the very real possibility of backdoors from that very same entity. And let’s be honest, a zero day due to a CPU bug is orders of magnitude more likely to cause real harm than the fantasy of state actors deploying some blobs to your computer and have a look at my meme collection. 100% is never achievable but I much prefer having 85% than nothing.

Re: I Love Arch, but GNU Guix Is My New Distro

#117

Post by grumbel »

zelphirkalt wrote: post #63
masklinn wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author is a lisper, is a good reason. And while nix may be battle tested that doesn’t translate to a good experience, the learning curve is high and the documentation while plentiful is not really good or helpful to beginners. Plus the entire thing is in flux right now between flakes, home-manager, and a desire to kill nix-env.

Not sure what level exactly a beginner is, but I have my problems with Guix docs too. Try making a package for example. Took me a long time and multiple questions on mailing list and irc to get it done. People also recommend more than 1 different strategies. Then try upgrading a package, when there are some files you want to exclude. How to do that? Seems I can not find answers for my questions in the docs and always…

I found the easiest way to answer those questions is to look at how other packages do it.

The issue here isn't just that the documentation is lacking, but that Guix wants to have everything done in Scheme, so you often run into the issue of having to translate code you already have running in Bash into whatever Scheme equivalent Guix wants.

Re: I Love Arch, but GNU Guix Is My New Distro

#118

Post by dralley »

jrm4 wrote: post #111
marcan_42 wrote: post #27

> Guix System is an advanced distribution of the GNU operating system. It uses the Linux-libre kernel It's worth pointing out that the linux-libre kernel is developed under the FSF doctrine that "binary blobs are bad unless you can't see them". This has been taken to its logical extreme here, where this Linux fork actively removes security warnings informing users that they need to update their CPU microcode , becaus…

Lobbing a charge like "Arbitrary religious dogma" is pretty much the opposite of a reasoned look at what the goals are here. I find the approach interesting. The goal of the Free Software folk was never primarily to "provide the best information to the end user," it is to "preserve software freedom." Guix looks like a possible technical path to do that. Will it work? Will it cause harm? I don't know yet. Either way,…

Yes, but how does static proprietary firmware blobs burned into ROM "preserve user freedom" vs. dynamic loading, even if the user has complete control? It doesn't, and that's why it's arbitrary.

Re: I Love Arch, but GNU Guix Is My New Distro

#119

Post by rightbyte »

detuur wrote: post #98
rightbyte wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a few years later, open drivers for that GPU were developed So ... FSF made the right call? What is the point of the certification of a device if there are no drivers for it.

The wrong call, because you can only reasonably develop drivers for uncrippled GPUs. The FSF was so caught up in maintaining a freedom from being _tempted_ to use proprietary software, that their solution would've taken away the freedom to develop your own free software.

I read the certification is some sort of consumer protection/advice. As a consumer, you would want to know the state of the device at purchase when you pay for the GPU. Not some maybe driver coming up in years.

It would be a kinda good idea to have a "rms would almost use this" sticker they could hand out, though.

Looking at: https://ryf.fsf.org/categories/laptops

There is a sorry collection of refurbished laptops.

Re: I Love Arch, but GNU Guix Is My New Distro

#120

Post by pyentropy »

wiz21c wrote: post #99
marcan_42 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their approach is firmly stuck in the computing paradigm of the 70s and 80s, much like Stallman is personally stuck in the social narrative of the same era. The FSF and him refuse to change and adapt to the times. But since reality doesn't care about their refusal to adapt, and they can't just throw their hands up in the air and say nothing is free any more and you should just live off the grid and reject all technol…

God doesn't exist, that doesn't prevent him of being. The quest for freedom is, of course, an idealistic one. The important thing is that, in their fight to promote freedom, they meet obstacles. Those friction points reveal the lack of freedom. And so, although they don't reach freedom, they actually show that freedom is limited. IOW, refusing the statu quo is one of the way to change it. You should look at history a…

> how much freedom you have, how much protection you have, etc. and then ask yourself : where does it come from

Game theoretic behaviour in society that has advanced beyond zero sum.

Same goes for reasonable approach to FOSS, like Marcan is doing himself vs the cult and the arbitrary zero tolerance rules.

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