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I Love Arch, but GNU Guix Is My New Distro

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Re: I Love Arch, but GNU Guix Is My New Distro

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their approach is firmly stuck in the computing paradigm of the 70s and 80s, much like Stallman is personally stuck in the social narrative of the same era. The FSF and him refuse to change and adapt to the times. But since reality doesn't care about their refusal to adapt, and they can't just throw their hands up in the air and say nothing is free any more and you should just live off the grid and reject all technol…

what does adapting to the times mean? FSF and GNU seem to be about fundamentals of computing and software. have these fundamentals changed?

The line between hardware and software has been heavily blurred in the past 30 years. The FSF continue to draw an arbitrary line where none can be drawn, and then say only one side needs to be Free. Since there is no longer any clear line, this gives them the freedom (ha) to deceptively do so in a way that is convenient to them and makes their followers believe they are getting some kind of special Freedom, when in reality the FSF is just tweaking the definitions to make it work.

Then they spin narratives about how this is important for not just freedom, but also security/privacy/etc, while their policies have absolutely nothing to do with improving users' security or privacy, as is made evident by the linux-libre issue, among many others. Actual assessment of the privacy/security impact of proprietary firmware on users is a much more nuanced topic, but the FSF are not interested in nuance, they just say "blobs (that you can see) bad".

Re: I Love Arch, but GNU Guix Is My New Distro

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but i am aware when those updates happen and what they are. they are not automatic or hidden

if its not automatic or hidden then it is ok, as long as you have that control. to be clear i think GNU has every right to forbid non-free software just as anyone has the right to not use GNU software if they don't want to. what should be known about are consequences and responsibilities for either (any) decision. if GNU says we dont want to support this security update it needs to clearly state the risk their users…

They do not state anything like that; that's the entire problem with that linux-libre patch. It is removing a message that informs user that their computer is at risk without an update, because they don't want people to know, because if they did most people would choose to install the proprietary update to the proprietary microcode they are already running, and that would expose the existence of that microcode, and the FSF's utopia only exists in the minds of people who aren't aware of all the proprietary firmware they're running anyway.

It's all a big lie. There's proprietary firmware everywhere. The FSF just doesn't want users to know about it, so they can live happily in their blissful ignorance believing they are freer than everyone else.

Re: I Love Arch, but GNU Guix Is My New Distro

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author is a lisper, is a good reason. And while nix may be battle tested that doesn’t translate to a good experience, the learning curve is high and the documentation while plentiful is not really good or helpful to beginners. Plus the entire thing is in flux right now between flakes, home-manager, and a desire to kill nix-env.

Not sure what level exactly a beginner is, but I have my problems with Guix docs too. Try making a package for example. Took me a long time and multiple questions on mailing list and irc to get it done. People also recommend more than 1 different strategies. Then try upgrading a package, when there are some files you want to exclude. How to do that? Seems I can not find answers for my questions in the docs and always…

> Not sure what level exactly a beginner is, but I have my problems with Guix docs too.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying guix is better (I have absolutely no idea), just that the experience with nix is extremely rough so nix being a bit more popular is not necessarily that much of an edge (or one at all).

> I like Guix as package manager, but their docs can definitely be improved with loads of examples and tutorials.

In fairness I'll say that especially if you're a long term user it is very easy to be blind to the early user experience. Sadly most projects don't push new users towards really reporting their experience or even contributing to the docs, but if you have the time and inclination to do so I'm quite convinced your experience would be extremely valuable to those who'll come after you, even if the project doesn't necessarily value them that much (but even then it can be useful as evidence of issues with the early experience / uptake, and possibly efforts to rectify them later on).

It's also useful on a personal level, because memory is a fickle thing and a year from now you may not even remember your struggles.

Re: I Love Arch, but GNU Guix Is My New Distro

#74

> Guix System is an advanced distribution of the GNU operating system. It uses the Linux-libre kernel It's worth pointing out that the linux-libre kernel is developed under the FSF doctrine that "binary blobs are bad unless you can't see them". This has been taken to its logical extreme here, where this Linux fork actively removes security warnings informing users that they need to update their CPU microcode , becaus…

Well, for some people loading an arbitrary binary code without possibility to check what's inside it is a critical security issue as well.

Re: I Love Arch, but GNU Guix Is My New Distro

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why is it a religious dogma? i dont see the point of hostility. they have every right to hold to those principles as long as they are not deciving anyone and state their values clearly. who are they harming?

They are deceiving people into believing they are not running proprietary software, while they are, and that software is just not evident because it doesn't live on their filesystem. Then they actively withhold information from users so they will neither find out nor be tempted to find out for some other reason. If they were being honest, they would tell people that this dongle has a good half a megabyte or so of pro…

i just looked through this website and found a link to their certification process at https://ryf.fsf.org/about/criteria

it states:

> However, there is one exception for secondary embedded processors. The exception applies to software delivered inside auxiliary and low-level processors and FPGAs, within which software installation is not intended after the user obtains the product. This can include, for instance, microcode inside a processor, firmware built into an I/O device, or the gate pattern of an FPGA. The software in such secondary processors does not count as product software.

>We want users to be able to upgrade and control the software at as many levels as possible. If and when free software becomes available for use on a certain secondary processor, we will expect certified products to adopt it within a reasonable period of time. This can be done in the next model of the product, if there is a new model within a reasonable period of time. If this is not done, we will eventually withdraw the certification.

END QUOTE

According to you, what is deceptive about this?

Re: I Love Arch, but GNU Guix Is My New Distro

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but i am aware when those updates happen and what they are. they are not automatic or hidden

It's just a package. It's not automatic nor hidden. If you've never noticed it being updated, then you probably haven't been paying enough attention to the package list when you did choose to issue a system-wide upgrade command.

What is that package called? Is it the "linux-firmware" one?

Re: I Love Arch, but GNU Guix Is My New Distro

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but i am aware when those updates happen and what they are. they are not automatic or hidden

It's just a package. It's not automatic nor hidden. If you've never noticed it being updated, then you probably haven't been paying enough attention to the package list when you did choose to issue a system-wide upgrade command.

Worth noting that BIOS updates frequently ship with ucode updates that are applied at boot before UEFI executes the operating system. So if GP is diligent about keeping the BIOS up to date, it's conceivable that Linux's ucode update has never had any work to do. At the very least this seems to be the case with Thinkpads.

Re: I Love Arch, but GNU Guix Is My New Distro

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just a package. It's not automatic nor hidden. If you've never noticed it being updated, then you probably haven't been paying enough attention to the package list when you did choose to issue a system-wide upgrade command.

What is that package called? Is it the "linux-firmware" one?

On Debian, https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/intel-microcode

Re: I Love Arch, but GNU Guix Is My New Distro

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are deceiving people into believing they are not running proprietary software, while they are, and that software is just not evident because it doesn't live on their filesystem. Then they actively withhold information from users so they will neither find out nor be tempted to find out for some other reason. If they were being honest, they would tell people that this dongle has a good half a megabyte or so of pro…

i just looked through this website and found a link to their certification process at https://ryf.fsf.org/about/criteria it states: > However, there is one exception for secondary embedded processors. The exception applies to software delivered inside auxiliary and low-level processors and FPGAs, within which software installation is not intended after the user obtains the product. This can include, for instance, mic…

The existence of that exception, the way it is implemented, the way they work with vendors to help them fit into it, and the way they do not require informing users of such secondary processors are all deceptive.

Just look at the Librem 5. That CPU needs a blob to even boot (to train the RAM). Normally that would just be embedded into the bootloader. But that would make it evident in the build process for their boot stack that there is a blob involved, and they can't certify that as "Respects your Freedom". So instead they worked with the manufacturer, and came up with this contrived interpretation of the "secondary processor" rule where, as long as the firmware in the "secondary processor" is at least two steps removed from the main CPU and never handled "directly" by it, it's okay. Then they had the manufacturer put the blob in a Flash ROM (Flash, so updatable, remember? just not that easily), and then they had them write a little loader code that runs on another secondary CPU. So the main CPU (running free software) boots a secondary CPU (running free software) that loads a blob from Flash and then boots a third CPU, which now runs proprietary software. According to the FSF, all this pointless obfuscation and extra levels of indirection makes the device magically compliant with their criteria. And so it got certified.

It is completely evident that absolutely none of this helps end-users' freedom in any way, shape, or form vs. just having the blob in the normal bootloader where it can be more easily inspected and analyzed (and also lets users ensure that it hasn't been tampered with). It's just adding obfuscation so users won't find the blob, and therefore will feel better believing they aren't running any blobs.

By this interpretation of the rule, I could ship an x86 PC with an Nvidia GPU that runs its proprietary driver on one of the CPU cores (isolated from the main OS), loaded by the UEFI firmware through ME or something, which communicates with the rest of the cores via VirtualGL or some other RPC, and that would make this PC eligible for RYF certification. Tell me that's not a farce.

Re: I Love Arch, but GNU Guix Is My New Distro

#80
post #74

> Guix System is an advanced distribution of the GNU operating system. It uses the Linux-libre kernel It's worth pointing out that the linux-libre kernel is developed under the FSF doctrine that "binary blobs are bad unless you can't see them". This has been taken to its logical extreme here, where this Linux fork actively removes security warnings informing users that they need to update their CPU microcode , becaus…

Well, for some people loading an arbitrary binary code without possibility to check what's inside it is a critical security issue as well.

exactly. and people promoting closed source security updates should print this risk out in most clear fashion. if we want to hold GNU to account for security then we should definitely do so with closed source vendors too
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