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The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

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Re: The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

#11
post #2

Somehow everybody in this system claims they're not the ones making bank on this swindling. The doctors say they're underpaid. The hospital admin says they're underpaid. The insurance companies say they're barely covering their payouts. So who is lying?

Some people somewhere, with cigars, in $5,000 suits. "Look at all those schmucks! $400 per shot and $1,000 per stitch." The whole healthcare system needs to be regulated by the government end-to-end. All procurement must be transparent. Every cent traced. Pharma mafia dismantled - on a federal level.

Re: The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

#12
post #2

Somehow everybody in this system claims they're not the ones making bank on this swindling. The doctors say they're underpaid. The hospital admin says they're underpaid. The insurance companies say they're barely covering their payouts. So who is lying?

The hospital admins are lying. Doctors will go through a billing agency who can charge whatever they want. The doctor might not know, but would be naive to believe it’s not expensive.

Re: The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

#13

This is absurd. Even in a country with liberal economics and "free choice" health system (however with universal care, and state regulation), the same stitches in a world-class private clinic in Santiago, Chile would cost 400 USD, before insurance . The clinics there are not the ones Americans imagine from a middle-income country, most of them have better infrastructure and doctors than the ones I know in Europe. And…

The stitches are expensive mostly because of many regulatory factors that restrict the supply of medical services and drive costs up, with the "free market" component being in how much they can charge the patients. It's the worst of both worlds in the US.

Re: The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

#14
post #6
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hospital and the doctors. Almost $500 for a tetanus shot is simply not justifiable

The doctors likely have nothing to do with how much procedures bill for. In private practice outside a hospital, they perhaps have more guilt here, but in an ER? They set the prices about as much as the janitors do.

Doctors are acutely aware of how much which procedures bill for.

Re: The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

#15
post #2

Somehow everybody in this system claims they're not the ones making bank on this swindling. The doctors say they're underpaid. The hospital admin says they're underpaid. The insurance companies say they're barely covering their payouts. So who is lying?

> The hospital admin says they're underpaid. The insurance companies say they're barely covering their payouts. So who is lying?

Insurance companies are definitely lying (their execs are paid tens of millions) though it should be noted that the US system greatly limits the ability to spread insurance payments on health populations, so it makes sense that the population using medical services is a larger share of the insured population, and thus has to pay more.

Anyway more generally the administrative overhead of US healthcare is absolutely enormous e.g. as of 2017[0] it was almost 35% of medical expenses, versus 17% in Canada (up from respectively 31 and 16.7 in 2003).

> [Administrative costs per capita in the US versus Canada are] $844 versus $146 on insurers' overhead; $933 versus $196 for hospital administration; $255 versus $123 for nursing home, home care, and hospice administration; and $465 versus $87 for physicians' insurance-related costs.

So the admin overhead in the US (v Canada) is:

- 5.78x on insurance

- 4.76x on hospitals

- 2.07x on nursing homes, home care, and hospices

- 5.34x on physicians

Importantly though you did not list drug companies in there.

Drug costs are completely out of control in the US (some generic and out of patent drugs have seen price increases of 80x in a decade), and AFAIK modern treatment regimens tend to include a lot more different drugs.

At the hospital level, aside from the administrative overhead above, as an other commenter notes there is also the issue that because it's not a single-payer public health system hospitals have to compensate for indigent ER clients by billing more to, well, people who can pay.

Then of course there's the issue that because all the incentives are fucked under the US system it's being used the least efficient way possible e.g. medical costs are sky-high, so people can't have a GP, so they can't take care of their conditions until those go south, at which point they go to the ER which is the most expensive and least efficient medical service center.

And then the ER's job is to stabilise them, but they still don't have any more money to pay for long-term treatment than they did before having to go to the ER (less, really), so they can't follow through, so they degrade again, and back to the ER.

[0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31905376/

Re: The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

#16
post #2

Somehow everybody in this system claims they're not the ones making bank on this swindling. The doctors say they're underpaid. The hospital admin says they're underpaid. The insurance companies say they're barely covering their payouts. So who is lying?

My understanding is that the ER system is especially expensive because paying customers are subsidizing non-paying customers (homeless) who use the ER as primary care.

That said, I don't think this excludes the possibility that the insurance companies and the hospitals are also not telling the full truth.

Re: The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

#17

This is not that bad because he ended with a negotiated rate and paid 1,000 or so. I’ve seen much worse One cause is political. One place I worked govt would only pay a % of the billable rate - this was so politically they could say program was saving money. So the ‘rack’ rate went through the roof. The irony? We’d have preferred to charge less to cash payors (this was a nonprofit) because they were much less painful…

Having to go through the process of negotiating it down is proof that the system is a failure, because that’s very obviously difficult for the majority of people to do. You simply shouldn’t have to do that in the first place.

Re: The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

#18
My daughter here in France had a bike accident two months ago which requires 14 stitches in her foot.

We received 3 follow-up visits from nurses to clean and redress her wounds --

We pay about 100€ a month for supplemental private insurance on top of the public health insurance here --

Total cost for us? about 40€. We would have had to pay about 100€ more for the nurses' visits, but the mutuelle covered it.

These are some of the reasons why my wife and I moved from the US to France -- she's French, I'm American; but I can't imagine returning to the nightmare complexity of billings and profiteering that the US system has become...

Re: The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

#19

This is absurd. Even in a country with liberal economics and "free choice" health system (however with universal care, and state regulation), the same stitches in a world-class private clinic in Santiago, Chile would cost 400 USD, before insurance . The clinics there are not the ones Americans imagine from a middle-income country, most of them have better infrastructure and doctors than the ones I know in Europe. And…

$400 still sounds high, to be honest.

Re: The ER charged him $6,589.77 for 6 stitches, cost that led his wife to avoid ER

#20

This is absurd. Even in a country with liberal economics and "free choice" health system (however with universal care, and state regulation), the same stitches in a world-class private clinic in Santiago, Chile would cost 400 USD, before insurance . The clinics there are not the ones Americans imagine from a middle-income country, most of them have better infrastructure and doctors than the ones I know in Europe. And…

The stitches are expensive mostly because of many regulatory factors that restrict the supply of medical services and drive costs up, with the "free market" component being in how much they can charge the patients. It's the worst of both worlds in the US.

I can tell you that you cannot freely open a clinic in Chile, and Doctors have the monopoly on many treatments that are delivered by nurses or other workers in Europe. Becoming a Doctor is not easy, and foreign Doctors must go through difficult tests before working for the public system.

Additionally, I remember that many supplies come from... the United States? So what regulations are you talking about?

Maybe you meant monopolies?

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