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Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

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Re: Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

#311

Post by csdvrx »

vijucat wrote: post #278
csdvrx wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Caps lock is Escape everywhere all the time This would be a limit: I use AHK to have chorded keys: - caps is esc if used alone, control if used with another key - enter is enter if used alone, control if used with another key - shift left is page up if used alone, shift if used with another key - shift right is page down if used alone, shift if used with another key - alt left is home if used alone, alt if used wit…

This is super interesting. I absolutely love AHK, too. But can you please clarify how you achieve, "caps is esc if used alone, control if used with another key"? Is it based on whether the key is still down (pressed) vs. up (released)? If you don't mind, can you please share your script? My Capslock-as-a-modifier setup is very simple. I just use Capslock + various keys to do stuff: Capslock & p::Send, {PgUp} Capslock…

Of course, I'm happy to share my script!

I've already posted it here, check my posting history.

Since you are the 2nd person to ask, I might even put it on github!

Re: Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

#312

Post by SECProto »

bastijn wrote: post #308

There are many people in this thread recommending cherry mx red/brown/blue. There are also as many stating mechanical keyboards are not for them, often referring to same switches. Those that would like to explore a bit more, in the custom keyboard world the aforementioned switches are mostly considered starters. More popular, people use switches like Gateron Black Ink V2, Alpacas, Tangerines for linear. U4T, Zealios,…

> Not saying it will be for you, but discarding mechanical keyboards on base of what the pre-built market offers is not the best measure of things.

What about buying a single $25 off-brand keyboard with off-brand cherry MX keys and liking it well enough that I can't justify even considering a new keyboard with different switches that I might like more?

Re: Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

#313

Post by meepmorp »

Aloha wrote: post #184
some-guy wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought so too, so I brought my 1989 Model M and asked everyone around me if they were okay with it, and that the first complaint I heard about it I would get rid of it. Slowly after that, people started bringing in all kinds of mechanical keyboards.

My cube mates threatened to shove it where the sun don't shine if I dared used the one I brought to show off at work.

The nice thing about the Model M, and still more so the Model F, is that in addition to being a keyboard, they're very effective melee weapons.

Re: Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

#314

Post by aix1 »

vehemenz wrote: post #216

Topre switches are great! But can someone explain the draw of HHKBs? Aside from nerd street cred, that is. A lot of programmers swear by them, but I don't understand why. Let's talk about the layout. As a Vim user, I need my CapsLock->Esc. Fine, so I'll remap Ctrl—but inexplicably, there are huge gaps where the regular Ctrl keys would be. There are no arrow keys or nav cluster, which means you need to use layers or k…

> There are no arrow keys or nav cluster, which means you need to use layers or key combinations to access them. I have no problem relearning how to use my keyboard, but dedicated keys are still faster and easier.

"Easier" is subjective and so I won't address it. As to "faster", I have ♢+{🄸,🄹,🄺,🄻} mapped to {up,left,down,right} making them much quicker to access than reaching for a dedicated cluster of arrow keys.

The ♢ key is to the immediate left of the spacebar and is quickly reachable by my left thumb. 🄹,🄺,🄻 are under the fingers of my right hand in its default home row position and 🄸 is only a very short distance away.

Re: Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

#315

Post by mekster »

numpad0 wrote: post #254
formerly_proven wrote: post #45

The notion that a capacitive switch is somehow expensive to manufacture because the PCB is allegedly "special" (doubt) seems odd to me. All other capacitive sensing stuff uses bog-standard PCBs with nothing special about them at all and it's not like the rubberdome is hard to manufacture either (considering that a more complex kind of rubberdome mat is the centerpiece in cheap rubberdome membrane keyboards). And then…

The really inexcusable part is they killed off Lite models and jacked up the entry price to where they are. My Lite2 PS/2 Kana-less JP from well before the earthquake is still fine and it was “was $49.99” anywhere back then. I know some RealForce US are real good but no way I’m spending $200 on a keyboard.

Lite shouldn't even be called hhkb. It's night and day difference I'm not sure why they made it.

Not sure how $200 is any expensive when it makes you feel comfortable for 10 years. Think about return value than the upfront cost.

Re: Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

#316

Post by emptysongglass »

stereoradonc wrote: post #236

I have a dedicated Telegram group for mechanical keyboards, and some enthusiasts (around 500+) hang around. I discovered the joys of keyboard during the pandemic, and it made for a delightful experience. I have cycled through several options (PBT keycaps/ switches) and found the "perfect combination" through hotswap (that allows me to replace switches) and pudding keycaps that makes for a delightful visual experience…

I'm on TG and I'd appreciate such a community, do you mind sharing?

Re: Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

#317

Post by Guvante »

wly_cdgr wrote: post #287

I guess because they've succeeded in making their brand into some kind of insider signifier and so are able to charge a premium to people who want to think of themselves as connoisseurs

On some level niche things are more expensive. Sure some of it is the aesthetic, I won't deny it, but without economies of scale and more importantly enough demand to justify a lower price point you end up at higher prices.

Like the Microsoft Trackball that was like $30 way back when but is now $200 for a make it yourself kit. By selling millions of them you can make them in a way someone selling a few thousand could never afford to.

Re: Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

#318

Post by mekster »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #237
Pmop wrote: post #133

I happen to own a Topre keyboard: Leopold FC660C, the silent version. I don't think it's expensive or a luxury item at all. If you indulge in mechanical keyboards with switches, your expenditures can easily go beyond $250 price tag: you buy expensive, special, limited supply switches because most switches are shit, and then you have to lube all of those or pay someone else to do it because otherwise it feels and soun…

> I don't think it's expensive or a luxury item at all. They are expensive though. I own three (I've got several computers and I take one with me when I travel) and I love them (daily driver since years and years and years: I can throw anything at them, they're rated for 150 million keypresses... per key ) but... I do hate the pricepoint. Just checking on Yahoo Japan for an HHKB Pro JP like I have: 40 800 JPY / 350 U…

> daily driver since years and years and years

And yet you think $350 is expensive? There must be many more things that return less to you.

Use it for 10 years, that's about $3/month for comfort of daily typing.

> it's still just a keyboard.

Interface is where it matters. Keyboard, display, chair etc. I hate to work with an average keyboard.

Re: Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

#319

Post by go_elmo »

csdvrx wrote: post #77
nicopappl wrote: post #49

I have the privilege of owning a Happy Hacking 2, it has topre keys. I used it for about a year. And I hated it! It's insanely noisy, to the point of distraction. It's so damn loud. But the dealbreaker for me is how heavy and deep the keys are. It's just too much energy and travel time for efficient typing IMO. After long sessions my fingertips felt sore from the blunt damage of pushing down the keys. But I'll recogn…

I agree so much!! I've tried my best to like mechanical keyboards... but no, I hate them. The noise is distracting, they require too much strength on every key, and they are big and expansive! I thought I might have the wrong keytypes, so I even purchased key testers: the red keys are less noisy, but that doesn't solve the other problems. So I just can't find a reason to like them. My favorite keyboard is the Thinkpa…

Atreus keyboard with purple switches is the best ever imo, tiny (no hand movement to use anything, incl. numbers & arrows), great mechanical feel & not too much travel / noise. Ill never switch back!

Re: Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

#320

Post by bayindirh »

FPGAhacker wrote: post #255
bayindirh wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a bunch of old Sun Microsystems mechanical keyboards at the office, and they're not loud. I use a Cherry MX Brown equipped keyboard and it's not loud either. Does everyone use "Blue" switches over there? BTW, I don't believe mechanical keyboards are a fad. They're much better than the better rubber dome keyboards. Especially as they age.

Out of curiosity, have you done typing tests? I did once with some keyboards I was comparing. For me there was a difference. At least in the moment. It's possible I was just better on one because it was similar to what I had already been using.

I've used a lot of keyboards in my life. The latest rubber domes I've used are either Microsoft and Logitech. Currently I'm using two keyboards daily, a Microsoft Sculpt (rubber dome) and a Logitech G710+ (Cherry MX Brown).

Logitech is much more consistent, softer, strains my hands less, allows for faster typing.

Rubber dome keyboards become heavier as they age, because their key stems wear down. They become extra heavy when you don't use them for some time, because grease tends to harden as they age. This is not the case with the mechanical switches. They just behave the same, all the time.

On the worst case, a rubber dome keyboard needs so much force and has so much friction that it sprains your hand/fingers (Dell's low end bundled keyboards are an health hazard).

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