UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative • Hacker News Board

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#61

Post by rahimnathwani » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 6:20 AM UTC

lokar wrote: post #46

rahimnathwani wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the College Board, which administes the SAT, the basic requirements cutoff is 530 for math, and 480 for English, i.e. total SAT score of 1010 out of 1600. The mean score for people attending UC Berkeley is 1415 out of 1600. If the UC admissions office were to use a threshold, it would have to be low enough that they don't get more Asians than they want. That threshold might end up being as low as 1010.

Are you saying the racial demographics of students who score above 1010 are very different from that of all graduating students who intend to go on to post secondary education, and that fact would be politically unacceptable?

No, I'm not saying that, and had not considered that question. But FWIW my guess is that the two groups you list have similar demographics (racial, socioeconomic etc.).

What I was saying:

GP suggested having a threshold used for qualification, and then selecting from qualified candidates using other criteria.

If you support this proposal, there's an upper limit to the threshold you choose. If you choose too high a threshold, then the % of students who are Asian will exceed the % of Asians in the applicant pool (or general population, whatever) and you will be accused of having a racist admissions policy.

So you must choose a threshold which is low enough that you have lots of freedom to pick on opaque/subjective criteria. Then you can achieve any demographic mix you want.

But if you choose a threshold as low as 1010, then it's probably not going to be any different from UC's current system, which ignores SAT altogether.

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#62

Post by gammarator » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 6:26 AM UTC

jwilber wrote: post #5

xyzzy21 wrote: post #2

UC schools have already become dubious - the entitlement of grads, the actual LACK of skills, not remotely "hungry" enough to have any grit or motivation, etc. My father (an engineering manager) always said: "If you want GOOD employees, you never want to hire from UCB, Stanford, Cal Tech, etc. The best engineers in California come from Cal Poly SLO and Cal Poly Pomona. They are actually trained as engineers". This is…

“ This is only proving that a college degree is not enough to qualify most graduates for any job. Better to hire from 2nd tier schools instead and even to consider HS grads on some cases.” How many students from Stanford, Caltech, Berkeley founded their own companies? How many from cal poly? Why the massive difference?

Family wealth, for one.

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#63

Post by CMdH8 » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 6:26 AM UTC

josephcsible wrote: post #36

Doesn't this make the admissions process less fair, more arbitrary, and more susceptible to biases?

Only if you believe that these tests don't introduce unfairness. Given the preparation economy around the SAT, the current situation seems to favour whoever can spend more for preparation courses. Also, such tests have the tendency to test your ability to take the specific test, rather than knowledge and skill. Full disclosure, I never took the SAT as I'm European. But I took other such tests as some places in Europe.

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#64

Post by abhiyerra » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 6:28 AM UTC

I was on the UC Berkeley campus on Tuesday. So many more black and latino students than when I was on campus. It was nice.

I had many black friends in high school and none when I went to Berkeley in 2005-2010. I can say the SAT, ACT, etc. are biased against anyone who doesn't have the money to get the prep for them.

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#65

Post by Auracle » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 6:29 AM UTC

protomyth wrote: post #60

1cvmask wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Dolezal And more do Native American. That's an easier one to check on the checkboxes for whites. That's why there has been an exponential increase of the self-identified "Native American" population since the 1960s. Elizabeth Warren is one of the more famous self-identified Native Americans (her siblings never knew they were). In the last census their increase has been the most in…

That's why they should have to list tribe enrolled & blood quantum. At this point, I wish the tribes could sue these people for fraud. The continued closing of doors on the most downtrodden minority is pathetic.

I'm 1/8th. Is that enough? 1/4th? Where's the line?

My state gave out grants to small businesses during the pandemic and directly said on the application that preference would be given to minorities. I didn't check both white and native only because a local organization would be dispersing the funds and I live in a rural area.

Quite frankly, I'm sick of "reverse" racism. That was my state government all but telling me that my small business didn't deserve funds because I'm (mostly) white.

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#66

Post by droidist2 » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 6:30 AM UTC

gibbonsrcool wrote: post #44

1cvmask wrote: post #16

These false flag diversity initiatives are there to entrench the privileged white elite who are threatened by the children of often 1st generation immigrants. From the article: UC admissions officers have said they were able to thoroughly evaluate the flood of applications without test scores, using 13 other factors in the system’s review process, such as a student’s high school grade-point average, the rigor of cour…

Let’s separate sports from academics. Sports organizations can exist outside the school. I’m suggesting this for all ages. Players can compete in divisions based on skill without school grouping as a factor. A lot of kids don’t play sports because they’re not competitive enough at their school. With these extra-academic divisions there’s more players for each pool of skill level. Another benefit is connecting people…

I always thought it was weird that colleges have sports teams, then again in Japan companies often have sports teams.

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#67

Post by rsj_hn » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 6:31 AM UTC

mrjangles wrote: post #51

anonuser123456 wrote: post #38

I for one welcome the UC systems choice to erode the signaling value of their degree. Hopefully more universities adopt this approach. Employers may in turn value said degrees less and eventually maybe we can burn down all of higher ed.

I agree and not even remotely jokingly. Higher education outside of STEM has been nonsense for quite some time. Inside of STEM, it has been an outdated form of education for just as long. The encroachment of socialism into the educational sphere needs to accelerate . The sooner it destroys itself the better.

That's great if your only requirement is to train software developers to write CRUD apps - you can learn to do that by watching youtube videos, reading self-study materials, and taking MOOC classes - but if you want mechanical engineers, chemical engineers, electrical engineers, and be a leader in materials science or chip manufacturing, then you still need universities.

So the price of this "equity" movement is going to be (and always was) mass de-industrialization and transforming the economy to third world status in which only immigrants educated in more sane institutions overseas drive all of the technological innovation.

I just don't see a how a nation can build state of the art planes, missiles, satellites, ships, and chips if its universities decide to eliminate objective measures of intelligence.

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#68

Post by kevin_thibedeau » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 6:32 AM UTC

0des wrote: post #28

lern_too_spel wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California public universities are not allowed to look at race in admissions, so gaming racial designation wouldn't help.

Sometimes names, surnames and neighborhood are sufficient in some cases, I'd imagine.

Or 90th percentile on standardized tests. Can't have them entering on aptitude alone.

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#69

Post by golemiprague » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 6:35 AM UTC

I can understand not relying exclusively on SAT, not because it is discriminating in any way but because it just gives one signal out of many other important signals which a university should take into account. Excelling in some ghetto school shows some other signals, like being a non conformist, fighting against adversity by "acting white" and ability to deal with distractions, something the children of a tiger mum might lack. However, ignoring the SAT completely is also stupid, it is a good signal for a combination of talent and/or dedication which should not be ignored.

Re: UC slams the door on standardized admissions tests, nixing any SAT alternative

#70

Post by WalterBright » Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 6:35 AM UTC

xyzzy21 wrote: post #2

UC schools have already become dubious - the entitlement of grads, the actual LACK of skills, not remotely "hungry" enough to have any grit or motivation, etc. My father (an engineering manager) always said: "If you want GOOD employees, you never want to hire from UCB, Stanford, Cal Tech, etc. The best engineers in California come from Cal Poly SLO and Cal Poly Pomona. They are actually trained as engineers". This is…

> They are actually trained as engineers

Caltech's engineering program doesn't actually train you to design machines, or how to operate a milling machine, or how to assemble an internal combustion engine. You can certainly get an engineering degree without ever getting grease under your fingernails. What it does do is teach you math. Every class is a math class. Statics, dynamics, newtonian mechanics, thermodynamics, fluid dynamics, electromagnetics are all math, math, math, math, math.

What you wind up with is not being afraid of math, and you've got some very powerful tools. Grease under your fingernails is learned on the job. But almost nobody ever learns math on the job.

I've known many engineers who were competent mechanics, but were terrified of math. They'll always be second tier engineers.