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Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

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Re: Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

#211

Post by wruza »

archarios wrote: post #172
csdvrx wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree so much!! I've tried my best to like mechanical keyboards... but no, I hate them. The noise is distracting, they require too much strength on every key, and they are big and expansive! I thought I might have the wrong keytypes, so I even purchased key testers: the red keys are less noisy, but that doesn't solve the other problems. So I just can't find a reason to like them. My favorite keyboard is the Thinkpa…

You don't seem to understand that you don't need to bottom out your switches to actuate them. I have Kailh Copper switches which barely require me to push them down very far in order to actuate. Also they're pretty quiet. You can have your preferences, but blanketly saying that all mech keyboards "require too much strength" and are "loud" is wrong. The "expensive" part isn't even true in all cases.

This is a skill and it isn’t free. First, you have to learn the contact height with all your fingers for all angles. Second, the balance between the weight of your fingers and the key resistance must be fine enough, or you get fatigue in finger-extending muscles, or misclicks, or misrepeats. Topre even made RealForce variants to address this specific issue. I’m sure it’s not so hard and you mastered it, but an average random person has to try few keyboards before finding the one that fits and each try has a learning curve, and the last ones can be expensive (“Oh, it seems that I want speed non-mx tactile 55g with orings and media keys, but there are only three models, one doesn’t ship to my region, and the other two are too high based, one pretty overpriced”). That’s why mechanical keyboard guys often have a handful of them, cause all are nice but only one really fits.

Re: Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

#212

Post by stan_rogers »

Lio wrote: post #127
csdvrx wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree so much!! I've tried my best to like mechanical keyboards... but no, I hate them. The noise is distracting, they require too much strength on every key, and they are big and expansive! I thought I might have the wrong keytypes, so I even purchased key testers: the red keys are less noisy, but that doesn't solve the other problems. So I just can't find a reason to like them. My favorite keyboard is the Thinkpa…

I have an IBM model M and a Pkr3 with Cherry MX Browns sitting on the shelf. What I’ve discovered over time is that I’m some kind of peasant when it comes to typing. What I really like are thin, low travel laptop keyboards and trackpads instead of mice. Small, symmetrical with everything centred below an external monitor. I love the idea of mechanical keyboards but the reality is that actuation force and the key trav…

Frankly, the old Thinkpad keyboard had the best combination of travel and feel ever put together. I can understand people preferring a different trackpad, and not particularly liking the TrackPoint, but the keys themselves were bloody amazing. Low travel, low effort, pre-bottom feedback with no unnecessary noise. (I used to use the USB version of the keyboard with my desktop machines, even though I needed a separate number pad to make some of the work easier.)

Re: Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

#213

Post by wildrhythms »

archarios wrote: post #172
csdvrx wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree so much!! I've tried my best to like mechanical keyboards... but no, I hate them. The noise is distracting, they require too much strength on every key, and they are big and expansive! I thought I might have the wrong keytypes, so I even purchased key testers: the red keys are less noisy, but that doesn't solve the other problems. So I just can't find a reason to like them. My favorite keyboard is the Thinkpa…

You don't seem to understand that you don't need to bottom out your switches to actuate them. I have Kailh Copper switches which barely require me to push them down very far in order to actuate. Also they're pretty quiet. You can have your preferences, but blanketly saying that all mech keyboards "require too much strength" and are "loud" is wrong. The "expensive" part isn't even true in all cases.

The dexterity required to only press the key (roughly) half way to the actuation point is just as strenuous; you might as well be bottoming them out every time. I prefer extreme short travel keyboards for this reason. Quieter, shorter key travel distance, much less fatigue.

Re: Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

#214

Post by Findecanor »

csdvrx wrote: post #77
nicopappl wrote: post #49

I have the privilege of owning a Happy Hacking 2, it has topre keys. I used it for about a year. And I hated it! It's insanely noisy, to the point of distraction. It's so damn loud. But the dealbreaker for me is how heavy and deep the keys are. It's just too much energy and travel time for efficient typing IMO. After long sessions my fingertips felt sore from the blunt damage of pushing down the keys. But I'll recogn…

I agree so much!! I've tried my best to like mechanical keyboards... but no, I hate them. The noise is distracting, they require too much strength on every key, and they are big and expansive! I thought I might have the wrong keytypes, so I even purchased key testers: the red keys are less noisy, but that doesn't solve the other problems. So I just can't find a reason to like them. My favorite keyboard is the Thinkpa…

Topre Realforce aren't really mechanical keyboards — they are rubber dome keyboards. They get lumped together with them only because they are high quality rubber domes, with a luxurious feel.

I would best compare Topre to Key Tronic Lifetime and ErgoForce rubber dome keyboards from the '90s. Both those and Topre are full-travel, and have a distinct bottom-out feel, but they still require you to bottom out. They are also comparable in sound, IMHO.

BTW. I prefer low-profile rubber dome/scissor switches or full-travel mechanical Cherry MX Clear. I've used a Topre keyboard a few weeks at work some years ago but my fingers starting aching from having to push past that big bump in the key travel.

Re: Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

#215

Post by BoorishBears »

chaorace wrote: post #82
formerly_proven wrote: post #45

The notion that a capacitive switch is somehow expensive to manufacture because the PCB is allegedly "special" (doubt) seems odd to me. All other capacitive sensing stuff uses bog-standard PCBs with nothing special about them at all and it's not like the rubberdome is hard to manufacture either (considering that a more complex kind of rubberdome mat is the centerpiece in cheap rubberdome membrane keyboards). And then…

> the PCB is allegedly "special" (doubt) I've taken apart Topre style boards before. I can absolutely confirm that the internals work differently from a classic rubber dome board. I'm not about to argue that the different mechanism makes Topres somehow special or worth the price of admission, but there's nothing "alleged" about it. I do love the sound they make, though.

They are different, but it's true the capacitive part is hardly necessary for the feel.

Unlike normal mechs, there is almost no chance you're not bottoming out a Topre anyways, so the actuation point could be at the very bottom of travel and still work the same.

Also I've tried $40 rubber dome Keytronics that had identical snappy Topre action, and the result was so similar I doubt most Topre users would be able to tell them apart (they might even prefer the Keytronic, the keys were much tighter)

Re: Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

#216

Post by vehemenz »

Topre switches are great! But can someone explain the draw of HHKBs? Aside from nerd street cred, that is. A lot of programmers swear by them, but I don't understand why.

Let's talk about the layout. As a Vim user, I need my CapsLock->Esc. Fine, so I'll remap Ctrl—but inexplicably, there are huge gaps where the regular Ctrl keys would be. There are no arrow keys or nav cluster, which means you need to use layers or key combinations to access them. I have no problem relearning how to use my keyboard, but dedicated keys are still faster and easier.

This is the part where an HHKB user says I'm doing it wrong. But that doesn't explain the inexcusable absence of Ctrl keys. And that doesn't explain the $300+ price tag when there are better keyboards for half the price.

The one nice thing about the layout is that it keeps the keyboard small. I'd gladly trade a little size for more keys though.

There are other Topre keyboards and Topre clones, as well as good linear switches out there. The switches are not really special anymore. Ten years ago, maybe, but not anymore. If I had to have Topre-like switches, I'd get clones with a better layout and Cherry-compatible stems. This isn't the mid 2000s anymore; there is actual competition in the mechanical keyboard market now.

Re: Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

#217

Post by Findecanor »

basedbertram wrote: post #81
InternetPerson wrote: post #67

For me, one nice thing about working from home all the time now is that I don't have to listen to everyone's annoyingly loud mechanical keyboards. I kinda hope this fad dies before I have to work in an office again...

Oh wow, do people really bring mechanical keyboards to the office? I thought that was generally considered a no-no.

Different keyboards are different, as are workplaces. I would never bring a keyboard with clicky switches to a shared workplace. There are also ways to make mechanical keyboards as silent as a classic office keyboards.

Re: Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

#218

Post by wildrhythms »

stan_rogers wrote: post #212
Lio wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have an IBM model M and a Pkr3 with Cherry MX Browns sitting on the shelf. What I’ve discovered over time is that I’m some kind of peasant when it comes to typing. What I really like are thin, low travel laptop keyboards and trackpads instead of mice. Small, symmetrical with everything centred below an external monitor. I love the idea of mechanical keyboards but the reality is that actuation force and the key trav…

Frankly, the old Thinkpad keyboard had the best combination of travel and feel ever put together. I can understand people preferring a different trackpad, and not particularly liking the TrackPoint, but the keys themselves were bloody amazing. Low travel, low effort, pre-bottom feedback with no unnecessary noise. (I used to use the USB version of the keyboard with my desktop machines, even though I needed a separate…

I think I remember the keyboard you're referring to- the keys had squared corners and slightly concaved shape? The newer Thinkpad keyboards have much different- and worse- flat keys with rounded corners, and mushy. I've actually come to prefer the much shorter Macbook style keys nowadays.

Re: Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

#219

Post by robotmay »

I have two Topre keyboards. I love my RealForce whole-heartedly, but my HHKB is nowhere near the same typing quality. The HHKB is still nice, but I only use it as a portable alternative (I have a bluetooth model). The RealForce feels easy, fluid, and solid, somehow.

I have the RealForce R2 with variably-weighted switches and it is such a pleasant experience to type on that I don't even bother looking at other keyboards any more - there's nothing else I want from a board.

Re: Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

#220

Post by FPGAhacker »

My personal favorite keyboard is the one built in to my old apple //e. I got the chance to type on it again last time I visited my parents.

It just feels great. Probably too loud, and no clickyness. Just a nice solid THUNK.

Also it puts the ctrl key in the right spot. I always have to remap caps lock and ctrl.

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