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Vials labeled ‘smallpox’ are found in Pennsylvania laboratory

nytimes.com

331–340 of 350 posts

Re: Vials labeled ‘smallpox’ are found in Pennsylvania laboratory

#331
post #316
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always thought the smart move would be a first strike with nukes followed up with aerial application of weaponized smallpox over non-nuked areas. The nukes would slow down and hamstring efforts at containment and let the biological agents get a good foothold.

For months, almost the entire Western world just watched slackjawed while Covid spread outward from China - presumably hoping it would just go away. I wouldn't worry too much about hamstringing containment efforts.

Wasn't that because the virus has hit some kind of local maxima of morbidity and human-fear?

If it was some kind "new ebola," I could imagine a much more aggressive response, with much less political polarization.

Re: Vials labeled ‘smallpox’ are found in Pennsylvania laboratory

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Smallpox has a genome with approximately 200k base pairs. I think you're underestimating the difficulty of synthesizing and amplifying a full genome of this size.

How different is it to other pox viruses? You might need a few snips…

I don't know, but a team of Canadian researchers synthesized a pox virus in 2018. They say, "this is the first complete synthesis of a poxvirus using synthetic biology approaches."

The methodology required was involved. They point out the difficulties dealing with the hairpin telomeres which would also be encountered with smallpox:

However, poxviruses represent special challenges because of the size (many exceed 200 kbp) and the difficulty of cloning features such as the mismatched hairpin telomeres. Poxviruses also cannot simply be recovered from transfected cells, as the DNA is not infectious.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

Re: Vials labeled ‘smallpox’ are found in Pennsylvania laboratory

#333
post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not for lack of people being willing to take the vaccination though. People look at risks and benefits and generally make their minds up pretty rationally, if you account that not everybody values things exactly the same as you do. Covid is really not that much of a risk if you're otherwise healthy and the vaccines are not highly effective as the smallpox one is (in fact stated definitions of vaccine had to be revise…

> People look at risks and benefits and generally make their minds up pretty rationally, if you account that not everybody values things exactly the same as you do. But what about when how they value things is not rational? Consider for example people who are rejecting COVID vaccines because they believe that they contain luciferase (they don't, BTW, although luciferases were likely used in the development of the vac…

I don't know, what about them?

I'm talking about the vast majority of people who are not vaccinated because they just aren't inclined to rush to get new medical treatments of little benefit to them.

Do the stats for the over 65 group honestly not make the situation clear to you? Focusing on the 0.1% lunatic fringe doesn't help your understanding, and it's the reason so many people are utterly baffled by what is easily explainable. Life is not the 20 loudest and most obnoxious twitter accounts.

Re: Vials labeled ‘smallpox’ are found in Pennsylvania laboratory

#334
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you tell a layman more about these surveillance systems?

Commercial oligonucleotide synthesis companies will check sequences submitted to them against databases of 'dangerous' or regulated sequences. Flagged sequences won't be synthesized. This was designed to prevent someone from ordering parts of a dangererous virus sequence for assembly of the complete virus.

> companies will check sequences submitted to them against databases of 'dangerous' or regulated sequences.

Weird, that's kind of how computer antivirus software works.

Re: Vials labeled ‘smallpox’ are found in Pennsylvania laboratory

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many people who don't make their vaccination decisions out of a mystic adherence to the very concept of a vaccine, but based on what they perceive to be a cost-benefit analysis (with the level of rigor varying wildly, naturally). Unlike covid, there's no large cohort of the population for which smallpox is a fairly negligible personal risk, and smallpox outbreaks provide much more dramatic and visceral evid…

Highly disagree. Most people make their vaccination decisions, like most other decisions, based on highly biased information that they have obtained from others around them. There is little "cost-benefit" analysis being done when you aren't actually comparing the real costs and benefits, but rather an extremely skewed interpretation you hear from the bubble you're in. Given that, regardless of the actual risk or visc…

> based on highly biased information that they have obtained from others around them. There is little "cost-benefit" analysis being done when you aren't actually comparing the real costs and benefits, but rather an extremely skewed interpretation you hear from the bubble you're in.

You're talking about the quality of the cost-benefit analysis, which I alluded to in my charitably-phrased parenthetical about rigor. That doesn't mean it isn't a cost-benefit analysis, and doesn't make it the same thing as religious adherence to pro- or anti-vaxxing. While some portion of the population engages in this approach, my point is that it's a lot fewer than most people think. That doesn't mean I think the cost-benefit analysis is high-quality, but that modeling these people as dogmatically irrational instead of very bad at being rational is misleading.

In stark contrast to Covid, the nature of smallpox outbreaks makes it so that even an extremely dumb person nominally engaging in cost-benefit analysis would have little trouble making basic inferences about the outcomes faced by people they knew who contracted it vs people they knew who didn't. I got vaccinated because I estimated that my low risk of a bad time after contracting Covid was higher than my low risk of a reaction to the vaccine. If for some reason, I didn't have access to the vaccine, it very likely would not have materially changed my young, healthy, no-comorbidity life.

There's another trivial rebuttal of your hypothesis, outlined in a sibling comment:

> You see the rational behavior play out when you look at vaccinations by age. 98% of people over 65 in the US have had one dose and 86% have had two. Because that's where the risk gets higher. Elderly people are not vastly better educated, smarter, less susceptible to propaganda, or lean toward political ideologies that are more inclined to take it, or have significantly easier access to it.

In your model of most people as not considering the cost-benefit tradeoff of vaccines, how do you explain the significant age disparity?

> The first vaccine hesitancy campaign literally was against the smallpox vaccine in Stockholm

This was _literally the first vaccine for a contagious illness_. You'd have to be irrational _not_ to have some degree of skepticism about being infected with a contagious disease, especially in an era with a population accustomed to a state with infinitely lower capacity and infinitely lower reach into everyday life. A quarter of a millennium later, in a society where the state licenses and ensures our safety in a trillion different publicly-known ways, the reactions of 1750s Swedes could not be less applicable.

Again, the pivotal difference relative to my framing is the approach to vaccines as an all-or-nothing tenet of religious faith, to be rejected with prejudice or embraced with devotion. This is obviously a fairly popular (implicit) perspective on public health, which makes it easy to lose sight that most people do not think like this, even the dumb ones.

> I don't see how you could say that there would be no hesitancy to it.

Kindly don't put words in my mouth. I said that Covid hesitancy is a different enough context that it's not usefully-applicable to a hypothetical future smallpox outbreak.

Re: Vials labeled ‘smallpox’ are found in Pennsylvania laboratory

#336
post #316
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always thought the smart move would be a first strike with nukes followed up with aerial application of weaponized smallpox over non-nuked areas. The nukes would slow down and hamstring efforts at containment and let the biological agents get a good foothold.

For months, almost the entire Western world just watched slackjawed while Covid spread outward from China - presumably hoping it would just go away. I wouldn't worry too much about hamstringing containment efforts.

Can't blame them (us) too much. It was unprecedented, and all previous dangerous fledgling pandemics in the past 10 years did just stop in time somehow. H1N1, MERS, SARS, Ebola etc.

Re: Vials labeled ‘smallpox’ are found in Pennsylvania laboratory

#337
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't we have vaccines? I mean sure an outbreak would be pretty horrific. But once the pictures start circulating, I suspect vaccine hesitation would evaporate pretty quickly. Yes, yes, we should go far to avoid an outbreak, but would it really be so world ending? Wouldn't we just contain it, vaccinate widely and be done with it?

I'd maybe buy this comment a few years ago. We are barely able to vaccinate against a global pandemic as it is. Our society would honestly probably crumble if you brought in a really deadly virus like smallpox to the fold.

or bird flu. That stuff gets me scared, almost 100% lethality

Re: Vials labeled ‘smallpox’ are found in Pennsylvania laboratory

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd maybe buy this comment a few years ago. We are barely able to vaccinate against a global pandemic as it is. Our society would honestly probably crumble if you brought in a really deadly virus like smallpox to the fold.

Not for lack of people being willing to take the vaccination though. People look at risks and benefits and generally make their minds up pretty rationally, if you account that not everybody values things exactly the same as you do. Covid is really not that much of a risk if you're otherwise healthy and the vaccines are not highly effective as the smallpox one is (in fact stated definitions of vaccine had to be revise…

A comment like this got me banned from reddit, stating I was downplaying the risk of Covid. Not saying covid is not dangerous, it really is, but just looking at numbers even diarrhea kills 10M people yearly. It's just not visible to us in the western world and not picked up by the media.

Re: Vials labeled ‘smallpox’ are found in Pennsylvania laboratory

#339
post #317
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Smallpox is significantly less infectious, and generally requires close and extended contact with a person who is coughing and infectious or a surface recently contaminated by someone with open sores. I don't know where you're getting your numbers. Current estimates for smallpox R0 are all over the place (as are the Covid ones, but I digress) and run from 1-20, with contemporary numbers as high as 6: https://pubmed…

> you walk by a group of people in the park and they’re infected >This has never been documented in the entire history of SARS-CoV2 This seems like something at risk of being a self fulfilling prophecy. How would something like that be documented? You can't do contact tracing on random people you walk past in the park. Even the contact tracing apps, sparsely used as they are, generally require a 15 minute contact per…

You can still make a reasonable assumption even without contact tracing of this kind.

1. We have people getting infected with covid after provable close contact with others that are infected.

2. We have comparably few infections at outside events when people are standing close to each other, but it does happen.

Even if you have no contact tracing for the walk-by infection case, just by looking at numbers 1 and 2 you could extrapolate to non-close contact outdoors not being very infectious.

Or reasoning from another perspective, if walk-by were enough to infect people, everyone would have already had it.

Re: Vials labeled ‘smallpox’ are found in Pennsylvania laboratory

#340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is when you look at the flu data. You think the flu kills more people on average? It doesn't, and most people that die from the flu are also elderly or have pre-existing conditions.

There are also big reccurent flu events, like the "Hong Kong" 1968-1969 flu that caused between 1 and 4 million deaths (with half worldwide population compared to today). In fact, supposedly the analysis of just how bad that flu epidemic had been (and how it had been largely ignored) is what basically created the postmodern version of the practice of epidemiology we still use today ?

This is also something I think is interesting. Covid is from a corona virus strain, but we have many corona viruses circulating already. With the flu every few decades we get a really bad strain. So if you compare the worst corona strain we know with the average flu strain, it's a bit of a biased comparison.
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