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The gradual extinction of softness

hippocampusmagazine.com

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Re: The gradual extinction of softness

#131

Post by bsanr »

netcan wrote: post #100
bsanr wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I know, and that is precisely the problem. The zealot perspective is that every story is the same story. It's always a story about capitalist greed or always story about moral impurity or always a story about market interventions going awry. It's beyond bias. It's total tunnel vision. In any case, this is her story, her perspective. Write your own story, and it'll be the story you want. Meanwhile, how dare you, who w…

There is a reason that my issue with the essay is presented as one that maps to rhetorical phenomena similar to the one specifically in question. It's because the central issue is the repetition - the ubiquity - of Capitalism and Western imperialism's apparent innocence in regards to suffering in the world that it largely shaped. No story that perpetuates this falsehood can be called beautiful; it can't be called truth, or even helpful. Every story like this recreates it's own cruel circumstances for posterity. And to say so is the opposite of tunnel vision; it's to acknowledge on multiple levels that meaning is half-formed without consideration of context, even if that context damns one's sentiments.

>Meanwhile, how dare you, who wrote what you wrote demand that others read your comment carefully and generously for nuance... Because.

I may be a hypocrite, but I'm not wrong.

And in any case, our circumstances are different: I'm not misrepresenting her words; you're misrepresenting mine.

Re: The gradual extinction of softness

#132

Post by bsanr »

lelanthran wrote: post #111
bsanr wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> My contention is that this is a problem, given what we know about the history of Capitalism and Western imperialist arrogance and its direct and deleterious effects on many (most) of the 3rd world countries these principles touched during the 19th and 20th centuries, and the ways in which those effects (predictably) hardened the hearts and ways of dissenters. Even in, as an adult, remarking on one's experience as a…

$FOO is bad because $FOO's faults have tended to create anti-$FOO people.

Further: these faults also tend to drive anti-$FOO people to violence - often not even simply as a matter of course, but as an explicit strategy. In almost every case, the first to violence is $FOO. $FOO then encourages violence from the other side, to legitimize a crackdown. When anti-$FOO survives this crackdown, their behavior has been altered forever by their initial experience with $FOO.

Re: The gradual extinction of softness

#133

Post by bsanr »

jessaustin wrote: post #25
bsanr wrote: post #18

It's frustrating to me that my potential enjoyment of this piece, lauded as it is by several of the comments that are already here, was poisoned by the introduction. I imagine that >I ran to visit my friend Yet, who lived in the village behind my parents’ house in Battambang, Cambodia. will come off as innocuous to many, but my immediate impression was, "Wait... like a plantation?". I'm not intimately familiar with C…

In fairness, it's hard to blame a 9yo for colonialism. The author's family might have benefited a bit from it, in the sense that they lived over their own shop instead of on dirt between rice paddies. One suspects that good fortune could be overstated, especially when weighed against that family's extinction and her own travails. Nguon's hatred for Khmer Rouge is genuine. However, she isn't foolish enough to consider…

I'm still not convinced of the wisdom of carrying water for these things which ultimately triggered catastrophe, through the backlash to their excesses. It's not a matter of there being no virtue in one side and no fault in the other; it's a matter of honoring the ambivalence so that one isn't caught off guard by earnest dissent. If your story is, "The evil authoritarians who destroyed my life, specifically, ruined everything," you're missing the military-industrial complex for the SCUDs; and there is an executive somewhere very happy about that, and also very happy to elevate your narrative which pretends that he doesn't exist.

My concern is that pride in the "greatness" of what civilization has become blinds people to the discontent which could rock everything we hold dear. Again.

Re: The gradual extinction of softness

#134

Post by netcan »

bsanr wrote: post #131
netcan wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know, and that is precisely the problem. The zealot perspective is that every story is the same story. It's always a story about capitalist greed or always story about moral impurity or always a story about market interventions going awry. It's beyond bias. It's total tunnel vision. In any case, this is her story, her perspective. Write your own story, and it'll be the story you want. Meanwhile, how dare you, who w…

There is a reason that my issue with the essay is presented as one that maps to rhetorical phenomena similar to the one specifically in question. It's because the central issue is the repetition - the ubiquity - of Capitalism and Western imperialism's apparent innocence in regards to suffering in the world that it largely shaped. No story that perpetuates this falsehood can be called beautiful; it can't be called tru…

What apparent innocence? No one has argued anything like this. Not the author. Not me. The thing you are objecting to isn't apparent innocence of western imperialism. The thing you are objecting to is the existence of a story that is about something else... to the point of historical denialism in all but the most technical sense.

It also happens to be true that the particular atrocities this story was about were committed by anti-western, anti-capitalists. The events she is describing really did happen... to her. That is the context. Preceding these events were other events. The story isn't about those.

Your comments are whataboutism.

And yes, it is tunnel vision. It is essentialism and it is zealotry. It is having one story in your mind that explains anything and everything. Everything boils down to capitalism and western colonialism. Any telling of events that doesn't conform to your one and only allowable story is rejected without inspection. As you said, you can't get past the first paragraph is it's not a simple anti capitalism/colonialism narrative. Who here is the one avoiding challenges to their comfortable biases? Who is the reactionary here?

In this case, it happens to be particularly awful, given that the perpetrators shared your specific tunnel vision. Even if the atrocities are committed by anticapitalists, an author has exactly one paragraph to clarify that colonialism that is the true culprit. It's like telling responding to a victim of fascism with a "but what about communism." There are parallels to every argument you bring up.

Re: The gradual extinction of softness

#135

Post by Valakas_ »

fxtentacle wrote: post #86
emodendroket wrote: post #62

> I’ve often wondered why, in a poor country where women work as hard as men to feed their children, feminine softness is so highly prized. As for me, I no longer consider it a valuable attribute. Isn't this its own answer? It's prized precisely because it is unattainable for most.

That explanation doesn't work for me. Women in Germany at my age never had a shortage of anything. Yet most of them present themselves as strong and fiercely competitive. It's rare to see a German woman embrace her softer side or act playfully in public.

We live in a society where everyone is almost fending for themselves. When we lived in tribes, a woman would rarely have to provide for herself, be competitive or fierce. She could if she wanted, but only by choice. She could just as well embrace her softness, take care of children and so on. She would always be cared for by the tribe, and would never be alone, having to earn her own means of subsistence.

Not anymore. Now women can't depend on their family or partners for subsistence. If they do embrace their femininity, become softer, or forego job time to be more time with children, they earn less, they provide less for their kids. And worse, what if the relationship ends? What then? Now she has to be full the provider. A typical man role.

So it's too big of a risk to be soft and feminine.

Re: The gradual extinction of softness

#136

Post by jacobolus »

iammjm wrote: post #77

What an incredible read. The protagonist has a non profit organisation that provides food and vocational training to Cambodian women in similar situation: http://mekongblue.com/ - there is a donation button and it only takes 3 minutes to donate via PayPal

They also sell silk scarves and purses https://mekongblue.ecwid.com

Re: The gradual extinction of softness

#137

Post by jessaustin »

bsanr wrote: post #133
jessaustin wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fairness, it's hard to blame a 9yo for colonialism. The author's family might have benefited a bit from it, in the sense that they lived over their own shop instead of on dirt between rice paddies. One suspects that good fortune could be overstated, especially when weighed against that family's extinction and her own travails. Nguon's hatred for Khmer Rouge is genuine. However, she isn't foolish enough to consider…

I'm still not convinced of the wisdom of carrying water for these things which ultimately triggered catastrophe, through the backlash to their excesses. It's not a matter of there being no virtue in one side and no fault in the other; it's a matter of honoring the ambivalence so that one isn't caught off guard by earnest dissent. If your story is, "The evil authoritarians who destroyed my life, specifically, ruined e…

Re-reading your original comment, I think your "like a plantation" impression was mistaken. In southeast Asia, even today, even in the countryside, the population is really dense. It isn't a sign of prosperity to have a village behind an auto shop. Everything has a village out back. Remember, western countrysides used to be more densely populated as well, before mechanization obviated all the farmhand jobs. Rural Cambodia was even more like that, fifty years ago.

But sure, colonization. USA ultraviolent body-count military colonization was in a sense a continuation of French opportunistic get-rid-of-the-king-and-install-his-half-brother colonization, but it is more properly considered an escalation. Similarly, Khmer Rouge "To keep you is no benefit, to destroy you is no loss" dictatorship was in a sense a continuation of Angkor-era feudalism, but it was really an escalation.

Lots of humans are tired of the escalation. You have fallen for the armaments manufacturers' narrative, so you can't hear an old woman cursing her persecutors without finishing her curse with "...and this is why capitalism is great". She didn't say that. "America" or "USA" or "capital" are strings that do not appear in TFA. Nguon DGAF which flavor of authoritarianism we prefer. She wants to enjoy traditional Cambodian crafts, and also French food, and also a bit of peace. Why should she care to follow idiotic USA "security" policy? She doesn't get a vote on that question, and the votes we get don't make a difference anyway. Every authoritarian system feeds on human blood; that isn't up to a vote.

It is tempting to try to preempt the "USA #1 always right!" bullshit, but I don't think you've accomplished that ITT. In future, focus on the truth, and don't worry about correcting old people on what they should really think about their most harrowing experiences.

Re: The gradual extinction of softness

#138

Post by CRConrad »

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #79
emodendroket wrote: post #62

> I’ve often wondered why, in a poor country where women work as hard as men to feed their children, feminine softness is so highly prized. As for me, I no longer consider it a valuable attribute. Isn't this its own answer? It's prized precisely because it is unattainable for most.

Because she's describing what is more accurately self-effacing stoicism, and subservience, not precisely "softness"? Endurance and self-sacrifice are not soft. e.g.: > A good Asian woman is supposed to shine dimly, like a moon, and reflect her husband’s sunlight. Not that she's completely sold on that model either.

> > A good Asian woman is supposed to shine dimly, like a moon, and reflect her husband’s sunlight.

> Not that she's completely sold on that model either.

As I read it, that is the "softness" / "stoicism" she's talking about. She's just exemplifying.

Re: The gradual extinction of softness

#139

Post by CRConrad »

bsanr wrote: post #131
netcan wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know, and that is precisely the problem. The zealot perspective is that every story is the same story. It's always a story about capitalist greed or always story about moral impurity or always a story about market interventions going awry. It's beyond bias. It's total tunnel vision. In any case, this is her story, her perspective. Write your own story, and it'll be the story you want. Meanwhile, how dare you, who w…

There is a reason that my issue with the essay is presented as one that maps to rhetorical phenomena similar to the one specifically in question. It's because the central issue is the repetition - the ubiquity - of Capitalism and Western imperialism's apparent innocence in regards to suffering in the world that it largely shaped. No story that perpetuates this falsehood can be called beautiful; it can't be called tru…

> And in any case, our circumstances are different:

Oh yeah?

> I'm not misrepresenting her words;

Sez you.

> you're misrepresenting mine.

Sez you.

Re: The gradual extinction of softness

#140

Post by CRConrad »

bencollier49 wrote: post #33
SiVal wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The implementation of the leftist utopian visions that torture and murder and silence and "re-educate" millions and send millions more desperate refugees fleeing out to die at sea in little, overloaded boats trying to escape is not usually described as "liberation" by those, such as my family and many friends, who managed to survive these visionaries.

What do you make of the current state of culture in the West?

> What do you make of the current state of culture in the West?

One can't help but be reminded — perhaps that was your intention? — of the classic quip attributed to Gandhi:

   Journalist: “What do you think of Western civilization?”

   Gandhi: “I think it would be a good idea.”
(Though Quote Investigator concludes at least the attribution is probably apocryphal: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/04/23/good-idea/ )
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