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Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

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Re: Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

#141

Post by FpUser »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #125
nicopappl wrote: post #49

I have the privilege of owning a Happy Hacking 2, it has topre keys. I used it for about a year. And I hated it! It's insanely noisy, to the point of distraction. It's so damn loud. But the dealbreaker for me is how heavy and deep the keys are. It's just too much energy and travel time for efficient typing IMO. After long sessions my fingertips felt sore from the blunt damage of pushing down the keys. But I'll recogn…

I worked at a company that gave people generous leeway to purchase computer gear they wanted. We already had good computers and monitors, so fancy mechanical keyboards were the #1 purchase for most people. The mechanical keyboard fans nerded out over different switches and other hardware, spending countless hours doing research and trying out different types of keys. And then slowly nearly everyone went back to regul…

About the only things I care about in keyboards are:

1) Curved ergonomic / sculpt please. I am really shitty typist. Ergonomic however makes me suck less.

2) No funny layouts. Basically it has to be faithful replica of that old IBM keyboard.

3) It is full size with no small keys. Can sort of tolerate smaller F-Keys

I got no sense of satisfaction from that loud mech clicking. Tried it and gave back.

Re: Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

#142

Post by bogwog »

germinalphrase wrote: post #26

Can anyone recommend an entry level mechanical keyboard specifically for extended typing (as opposed to gaming)? Or, at least, specific features/qualities to seek out.

The gaming keyboards are a good choice because they're cheap. Sure they're ugly sometimes with annoying LED effects, but they're good for getting started before you decide to invest in something more expensive/fancy.

In my case, I've fallen in love with my Corsair gaming one with blue switches. The red backlight is ugly, but it's actually comfortable when used in a dark room.

Re: Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

#143

Post by chriscjcj »

> There is low demand for these boards, which means the price doesn’t need to go down at all.

Low demand keeps prices high? I guess I kind of understand what the author's point is, but that's a somewhat counterintuitive argument. It's not so much the low demand that keeps prices high; it would seem that low demand prevents the product from reaching a level of mass production that would exploit economies of scale which might lower unit costs.

Re: Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

#144

Post by Agingcoder »

csdvrx wrote: post #77
nicopappl wrote: post #49

I have the privilege of owning a Happy Hacking 2, it has topre keys. I used it for about a year. And I hated it! It's insanely noisy, to the point of distraction. It's so damn loud. But the dealbreaker for me is how heavy and deep the keys are. It's just too much energy and travel time for efficient typing IMO. After long sessions my fingertips felt sore from the blunt damage of pushing down the keys. But I'll recogn…

I agree so much!! I've tried my best to like mechanical keyboards... but no, I hate them. The noise is distracting, they require too much strength on every key, and they are big and expansive! I thought I might have the wrong keytypes, so I even purchased key testers: the red keys are less noisy, but that doesn't solve the other problems. So I just can't find a reason to like them. My favorite keyboard is the Thinkpa…

They make sense in an office setting : I have RSI, and random rubber dome keyboards in the office are painful. Some of them are good, some of them super bad, and to me, bad essentially means painful. So, I found one I liked, and stuck to it, until it started having problems. Then I tried to replace it.

Unfortunately, this particular model of noname office keyboard was no longer available, and out of stock at my office. I realized that I had to do something : find a keyboard which would last a very long time, and with known physical properties ( actuation force, travel distance, etc), so that if I had to replace it later, it would be possible, and very easy.

In the end, it seems like I want mx red(45 linear), a split keyboard, flat (no angle) , silent, and as low profile as possible. Problem solved, there's plenty of those on the market!

Re: Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

#145

Post by jrockway »

darrylb42 wrote: post #16
whitepoplar wrote: post #4

I think it's because they're primarily sold to enterprises, so if you're buying one in a personal capacity you're paying enterprise rates.

What kind of enterprise buy these? I have only experienced enterprises buying the default keyboards that come with machines. $5 Dell specials.

Airline check-in desks, I think, is their reason for being. A lot of typing done there, 24/7, with customers that are about to miss their flight waiting in line. If the keyboard goes down, money can be lost. So they use keyboards that don't break.

The reliability of the keyboard doesn't matter for software engineers. You just get another $20 one out of the supply closet while you get your next cup of coffee.

(I used to be a big Topre keyboard fan and owned quite a few. I didn't buy them for reliability, though, I bought them because I liked them. That's not a good "enterprise" reason, though, which is why they're not standard-issue for software engineers.)

Re: Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

#146

Post by marcelnita »

bllguo wrote: post #46
marcelnita wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. There are numerous people, myself included, on /r/mechanicalkeyboards that have way better experiences with Realforce/HHKB keyboards and their quality. I use daily a RF 87 for the past 5 years and I've had no issues with it. I only regret not getting a Norbauer case for it, despite its price.

Norbauer still does releases afaik. In fact it looks like polycarb Norbaforces are still available. I'm pretty sure I saw a run of the metal housings earlier in the year, too.

Heh, they do. Thanks a lot! I've read one or two years ago in a newsletter from him that they were running the last batch ever of RF cases.

Re: Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

#147

Post by csdvrx »

Lio wrote: post #127
csdvrx wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree so much!! I've tried my best to like mechanical keyboards... but no, I hate them. The noise is distracting, they require too much strength on every key, and they are big and expansive! I thought I might have the wrong keytypes, so I even purchased key testers: the red keys are less noisy, but that doesn't solve the other problems. So I just can't find a reason to like them. My favorite keyboard is the Thinkpa…

I have an IBM model M and a Pkr3 with Cherry MX Browns sitting on the shelf. What I’ve discovered over time is that I’m some kind of peasant when it comes to typing. What I really like are thin, low travel laptop keyboards and trackpads instead of mice. Small, symmetrical with everything centred below an external monitor. I love the idea of mechanical keyboards but the reality is that actuation force and the key trav…

> What I’ve discovered over time is that I’m some kind of peasant when it comes to typing.

You and me both. I love low travel keyboard that make little noise. I've learned to accept my personal tastes, even if they don't match what's expected of me.

BTW I wonder how much of a learned preference mechanical keyboards are? At first, I thought they were preferred by older geeks because of a nostalgia factors, but they also seem popular with gamers.

I just don't understand. I have a friend on the spectrum who's (the best I can say) "physically violent when typing on his keyboard", to the point I wouldn't let him use my laptop as I'd fear for my keys.

He loves mechanical keyboards because they tolerate the abuse, and I just don't understand that: Isn't it better to not have to use that much force, and to not feel pain in your wrist and fingertips?

Re: Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

#148

Post by hereforphone »

nicopappl wrote: post #49

I have the privilege of owning a Happy Hacking 2, it has topre keys. I used it for about a year. And I hated it! It's insanely noisy, to the point of distraction. It's so damn loud. But the dealbreaker for me is how heavy and deep the keys are. It's just too much energy and travel time for efficient typing IMO. After long sessions my fingertips felt sore from the blunt damage of pushing down the keys. But I'll recogn…

Agree brown cherry keys are the best, and the Happy Hacking keyboard is probably overrated (never used one, thankfully never gave into the minor urge to buy one years ago).

I use a ROG Claymore now and it's great, the only real disadvantages being that the key caps are pretty flimsy, and they also come off too easily.

Re: Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

#149

Post by epolanski »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #125
nicopappl wrote: post #49

I have the privilege of owning a Happy Hacking 2, it has topre keys. I used it for about a year. And I hated it! It's insanely noisy, to the point of distraction. It's so damn loud. But the dealbreaker for me is how heavy and deep the keys are. It's just too much energy and travel time for efficient typing IMO. After long sessions my fingertips felt sore from the blunt damage of pushing down the keys. But I'll recogn…

I worked at a company that gave people generous leeway to purchase computer gear they wanted. We already had good computers and monitors, so fancy mechanical keyboards were the #1 purchase for most people. The mechanical keyboard fans nerded out over different switches and other hardware, spending countless hours doing research and trying out different types of keys. And then slowly nearly everyone went back to regul…

I second this feeling.

MK are all hype (I own a Keycron and use a Fnatic gaming kb as daily work kb) but I would pay to have the feel of good old 20 years old rubber cheap keyboards again.

Re: Why Are Topre Keyboards So Expensive?

#150

Post by jrockway »

jeffbee wrote: post #100
wyager wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For 90% of companies, increasing software engineer productivity by just a few dozen bps is worth thousands of dollars a year. On top of a $4k laptop, $2k screens, etc. a $400 keyboard is totally reasonable. If your company won't let you get stuff like this they're probably being irrationally stingy.

I've been in this business a long time and the idea that we are limited by the typing speed of the programmer is just about the biggest crock I've heard so far. Thinking of the concrete details from Google's 2016 paper where they reported a gross commit rate of 1000 lines of code per engineer per week, inclusive of large-scale automatic refactoring and configuration changes that were 75% of the volume. That leaves yo…

I'm limited by typing speed. I can type about 120 words per minute, but there are still times when my idea is not instantly conveyed to the computer. In that case, I'm forgetting new ideas while interfacing with a piece of machinery.

1000 lines of code per engineer per week is probably a factor here. Think about a flow where you're bottlenecked by typing something. You then don't finish the thing because you have a sprint planning meeting. You come back and forget where you left off, and never check in the code you half-wrote. If you finished before the meeting, then your line-modified count would have increased by 50 lines or something. But now you spent an hour doing nothing, as far as the lines-of-code counter says. That's a problem!

Typing speed is back pressure on ideas. When a system is overloaded, it should apply back-pressure so that the producer produces less. That's what your keyboard does. The question is: do you want back-pressure against your ideas? If not, you need to add a buffer that can account for the bursts. Typing faster is that buffer.

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