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Ask HN: I purchased a domain and now the registry wants to take it back

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Re: Ask HN: I purchased a domain and now the registry wants to take it back

#51

Post by reginold »

rfd4sgmk8u wrote: post #48
reginold wrote: post #35

Anyone here familiar with the newly launched Ethereum Name Service (ENS)? All the registrations are handled on the blockchain. Would this error be possible on ENS?

ENS is purely a vanity service, like any other NFT. ENS would not have this problem, however, you might as well write a name on a piece of paper and never show anyone. It is not the same thing. ENS will never be resolvable via the global DNS namespace. Its like a parallel DNS namespace. I don't believe that any blockchain NS will ever marry with the global name resolution namespace. Handshake and Namecoin are alterna…

Appreciate the perspective on this. When you say "ENS will never be resolvable via the global DNS namespace", is that a technical limitation or something else? I'm curious so learning about how it works (or doesn't!), sounds like you have a lot of experience.

Re: Ask HN: I purchased a domain and now the registry wants to take it back

#52

Post by robalfonso »

CogitoCogito wrote: post #50
robalfonso wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand your sentiment here, but should the registry decide the domain is not theirs it will simply not be manageable from the registrar/buyer. All they do is update the management id to the new registrar and the registrant contact of the domain, no intervention is possible. I can tell you I’ve seen legal orders transferring a domain from one registrant to another, if the order has the registry named to take act…

> I can tell you I’ve seen legal orders transferring a domain from one registrant to another, if the order has the registry named to take action, the domain kind of just goes poof, sure it’s in your system but you can’t do anything against it. Then maybe the original poster should demand such a legal order? I doubt there exists one now given it's only been a couple days.

In this context it was court orders, usually over an ownership dispute between corporations. The legal fees etc, make it unlikely to be worth the hassle.

Re: Ask HN: I purchased a domain and now the registry wants to take it back

#53

Post by jedberg »

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #49
jedberg wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like how when someone steals your car it's just gone forever? There still exists a legal system in which the NFT could potentially recovered. Yes it's harder with easy cross border theft, but that just means we need better global treaties.

Apples and oranges. If your car is stolen, there's a potential for it to be physically found and returned. If someone somehow finds the private key to steal an NFT, they could steal the NFT and then delete the private key for the new address that owns it. At that point, treaties don't matter. The ownership exchange is permanent until someone can derive the private key from the public key, which if someone did, then A…

Sure but if they delete the private key then they don't own it anymore either. It would be like destroying the car. And yeah, if someone steals your car and destroys it, you can't have it back.

There's also an easy fix for this. Make the NFT include a smart contract that requires periodic "checkins" that require the private key, and if the checkin fails, ownership reverts the previous owner or another address specified in the smart contract.

Or attach a smart contract that requires registration with a third centralized party.

NFT technology can interplay with existing legal frameworks and protections with the right programming.

Re: Ask HN: I purchased a domain and now the registry wants to take it back

#54

Post by gzer0 »

Unfortunately if you do not fully own your own ICANN registrar, for example, like Facebook [1], then your domain remains in the hands of the registrar; it doesn't matter what your WHOIS states.

I've looked into this exact problem because I wanted to know, what it takes to fully and completely own your own domain. The best way is to apply for an ICANN registrar accreditation which entails these requirements [2]:

  - US$3,500 application fee, which is non-refundable regardless of whether the application is approved, denied, or withdrawn.
  - US$4,000 yearly accreditation fee due upon approval and each year thereafter.
  - $70,000 USD in liquid assets
In the case of Facebook, they were able to receive an expedited approval since link [1] indicates that their company will not be buying nor selling any domains. It just exists for the sole purpose of owning the domain. Why did Facebook do this, you may ask?

Well, social engineering. An Njal.la hosted domain was successfully transferred to Namecheap (through no fault of Njal.la) through forged German Court records [3]. So now, no one can socially engineer the domain away from FB and I suspect the vast majority of these companies.

RIP. Looks like I won't be owning my own domain anytime soon.

[1] https://registrarsec.com/

[2] https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/financials-55-2012-02-...

[3] https://www.vice.com/en/article/qj8833/dark-fail-fake-court-...

Re: Ask HN: I purchased a domain and now the registry wants to take it back

#55

Post by CogitoCogito »

robalfonso wrote: post #52
CogitoCogito wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can tell you I’ve seen legal orders transferring a domain from one registrant to another, if the order has the registry named to take action, the domain kind of just goes poof, sure it’s in your system but you can’t do anything against it. Then maybe the original poster should demand such a legal order? I doubt there exists one now given it's only been a couple days.

In this context it was court orders, usually over an ownership dispute between corporations. The legal fees etc, make it unlikely to be worth the hassle.

Yeah I can totally see that. I guess in this case the OP could try to stand strong and refuse to go along without any sort of court order, but even in that case it's not like the OP can stop the registry from going through with the change. So really if the registry decides to do it anyway, then I guess the OP could try to pursue legal options. I guess maybe the domain would be worth it.

Re: Ask HN: I purchased a domain and now the registry wants to take it back

#57

Post by rfd4sgmk8u »

reginold wrote: post #51
rfd4sgmk8u wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ENS is purely a vanity service, like any other NFT. ENS would not have this problem, however, you might as well write a name on a piece of paper and never show anyone. It is not the same thing. ENS will never be resolvable via the global DNS namespace. Its like a parallel DNS namespace. I don't believe that any blockchain NS will ever marry with the global name resolution namespace. Handshake and Namecoin are alterna…

Appreciate the perspective on this. When you say "ENS will never be resolvable via the global DNS namespace", is that a technical limitation or something else? I'm curious so learning about how it works (or doesn't!), sounds like you have a lot of experience.

There is no reason technical that ENS could not run root .eth servers and have these in the global DNS namespace. It would be a centralized service with decentralized records.

I'm saying it wont happen because they wont let it. Its a closed club, and its a big deal when new TLDs get added. Johnny ethereum isn't allowed in.

Re: Ask HN: I purchased a domain and now the registry wants to take it back

#58

Post by rfd4sgmk8u »

forty wrote: post #44
igetspam wrote: post #29

I've had this happen during new TLD launches. I owned lap.top for about a day but so did a whole lot of people. I lost that race. You don't own a domain. You rent it and the registrar can take it back. They generally don't, outside of trademark issues, legal problems or race conditions but they can.

In my case I actually own and control the domain (I'm in the whois and my website shows up in the browser)

No, you rented it from the registrar. Nobody owns domains, one rents them for the temporary control over NS records. The registrar can take it away at their prerogative.

Re: Ask HN: I purchased a domain and now the registry wants to take it back

#59

Post by rfd4sgmk8u »

swalsh wrote: post #14
dutchbrit wrote: post #10

You technically do not own a domain, but you lease it them. "ICANN's official policy is that domains are not property to be owned. Domain names are registered (rented) by payment of an annual registration fee."

Domains should be NFT's

Many have tried (they dont need to be NFT's, they just need a record mapping of name->NS IPs). Namecoin tried this. Handshake is trying this. ENS is trying this.

IMHO they will fail. You wont see decentralized name registration in the global DNS namespace. Too much abuse potential, too little flexibility with errors, trademarks, etc

Re: Ask HN: I purchased a domain and now the registry wants to take it back

#60

Post by rfd4sgmk8u »

jedberg wrote: post #53
Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apples and oranges. If your car is stolen, there's a potential for it to be physically found and returned. If someone somehow finds the private key to steal an NFT, they could steal the NFT and then delete the private key for the new address that owns it. At that point, treaties don't matter. The ownership exchange is permanent until someone can derive the private key from the public key, which if someone did, then A…

Sure but if they delete the private key then they don't own it anymore either. It would be like destroying the car. And yeah, if someone steals your car and destroys it, you can't have it back. There's also an easy fix for this. Make the NFT include a smart contract that requires periodic "checkins" that require the private key, and if the checkin fails, ownership reverts the previous owner or another address specifi…

It can't, and never will. The more you build the central controls, like trademark enforcement, to the system, you might as well replace it with a central database and licensed registrars and thats what we have now.

The global DNS namespace is heavily controlled. I very much doubt that these funny namespaces will be anything other than a fad used in niche applications. Metamask supports .eth, fine, but you wont be pointing at your https server with it if you expect grandma to resolve it.

We have seen it before, many times. NewNet isnt a thing this decade. You cant invent arbitrary TLDs and expect the internet to use em.

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