Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Crypto Wash Trading

arxiv.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

191–200 of 306 posts

Re: Crypto Wash Trading

#191

Post by xur17 »

joshfraser wrote: post #87
teitoklien wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

.... People pay for volume on uniswap daily ... They just spin up new wallets and keep making them exchange very high amounts of a token (10ETH buy , 10 ETH sell , multiple times) (net expense is just the gas fees, but they get paid wayyy more to do this). This is usually done to get uniswap traded tokens onto various trending lists like cmc , dextools , etc. I’d say there is 10-40x the fraud on uniswap than on centr…

That doesn't pass the smell test. Sure, you can wash trade on Uniswap, but it's expensive and everyone can see you doing it. The fee on most pools on Uniswap is 0.30%. In contrast, wash trading on most centralized exchanges is cheap or free and very hard to prove unless you have access to their internal data.

I mostly agree with you, but it's worth noting that the fee is distributed to the uniswap pool participants. Which means for a smaller coin that you are trying to pump, it would be feasible to deposit the majority of the money into the pool, and then trade back and forth to show volume. You'd be out gas fees + whatever portion of the trading fees the other participants receive.

Re: Crypto Wash Trading

#192

Post by mediocregopher »

What's the actual harm done by fraudulent volumes? I've been around crypto for a long time; I basically just ignore trading volumes on most exchanges, and go off other signals. I see this kind of thing come up now and then, with lots of hand wringing about the fraudulent nature of crypto and whatever... and I just don't get it. You can't trust the volumes, just move on.

Re: Crypto Wash Trading

#193

Post by carnitine »

PaulHoule wrote: post #137
gillesjacobs wrote: post #118

This paper jumps the gun. Detecting wash trading by examining distributions over rounded order prices is a strong and dubious claim for which they provide little evidence. The author's equate wash trading to non-rounded, clustered prices which really just indicates automated trading. Now automated ("bot") trading is a technology needed for exchanges wash trading sure, but not exclusive evidence of it. Automated tradi…

It's hard to tell wash trading from legitimate trading. Because I'm involved with a committee on financial semantics I wound up learning a bit about swap trading. For stocks if you don't like your long or short position you can buy or sell and it is done. In the case of swaps if you don't like your position you write another swap contract that is the opposite of the one you don't like. Both are on the books. In the 2…

The bigger factor in the size of the swap market dwarfing the size of the economy is due to the former being reported in terms of notional.

I will happily enter into an interest rate swap with you on SOFR^-14 and a notional of USD 1 trillion.

Re: Crypto Wash Trading

#195

Post by pbhjpbhj »

ziddoap wrote: post #96
pja wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s right there in the abstract.

When the title just says "70% of the volume in the top crypto exchanges", perhaps you can forgive the skim-readers of the world for believing they meant "top crypto exchanges", as stated, rather than "top unregulated changes". Sometimes it's nice for the title to honestly represent what the paper/blog/whatever is about without having to dive into the abstract. I think there might even be some word for having titles w…

Is there somewhere to read a quick summary of the regulation of crypto exchanges, I don't know they'd become specifically regulated?

Re: Crypto Wash Trading

#196

Post by throwaway2037 »

joshfraser wrote: post #134
rvnx wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western Union, cash money in minutes in nearly all over the world ?

They're not open at night. They take egregious fees, often up to 20% on the exchange rate. You can't send more than $2,500 online. And who wants to stand in line, fill out paperwork, or walk around with large sums of cash? If that exploitative company is the best example you've got, I rest my case.

You wrote: >

I find this hard to believe. Can you please demonstrate a single transaction with this fee?

Re: Crypto Wash Trading

#197

Post by londons_explore »

PaulHoule wrote: post #137
gillesjacobs wrote: post #118

This paper jumps the gun. Detecting wash trading by examining distributions over rounded order prices is a strong and dubious claim for which they provide little evidence. The author's equate wash trading to non-rounded, clustered prices which really just indicates automated trading. Now automated ("bot") trading is a technology needed for exchanges wash trading sure, but not exclusive evidence of it. Automated tradi…

It's hard to tell wash trading from legitimate trading. Because I'm involved with a committee on financial semantics I wound up learning a bit about swap trading. For stocks if you don't like your long or short position you can buy or sell and it is done. In the case of swaps if you don't like your position you write another swap contract that is the opposite of the one you don't like. Both are on the books. In the 2…

> but when you added them all up they mostly canceled out,

Except they don't cancel when one party goes bankrupt and a bankruptcy court decides how the assets should be divided.

Re: Crypto Wash Trading

#198

Post by sokoloff »

mikegreenberg wrote: post #182
sokoloff wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There was a period of time about 5 or so years ago where you could pay with Bitcoin almost anywhere. I do not recall this time at all.

Surely, that means it never happened. You must be some sort of oracle. https://www.techrepublic.com/article/pay-with-bitcoin-10-of-... https://money.cnn.com/2014/09/26/technology/paypal-bitcoin/ https://www.businessinsider.com/dell-becomes-biggest-company... https://money.cnn.com/2014/12/11/technology/microsoft-bitcoi...

What’s the threshold for “pay with Bitcoin almost anywhere”? 95%? 90%?

Surely the fact that articles are written about individual retailers who are now (then) taking Bitcoin is evidence against the acceptance of BTC being pervasive as a payment instrument rather than evidence in support of it.

Re: Crypto Wash Trading

#199

Post by carnitine »

_3u10 wrote: post #120
nefitty wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The market is interdependent. Wash trading on one platform benefits all other platforms. When you ask someone the price of BTC they don't say $x on Coinbase, $y on Kraken, etc. Literally all of crypto is a scam. After 10 years there is not one feasible use case that isn't done better through another tool. I don't consider "making black markets and extortion easier" a feasible use case.

Completely agree, I’d much rather lose at least 6.2% (if not 20%) in totally legitimate fiat currency inflation than see 200% returns on crypto as a result of that money printing. QE definitely isn’t wash trading.

How is QE even remotely wash trading?

Re: Crypto Wash Trading

#200

Post by tata71 »

nefitty wrote: post #168
_3u10 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree, I’d much rather lose at least 6.2% (if not 20%) in totally legitimate fiat currency inflation than see 200% returns on crypto as a result of that money printing. QE definitely isn’t wash trading.

That's how all Ponzi schemes are marketed. "I got rich, so can you!"

This is why I didn't get a desk job where I had to show up by 8am...seemed like a cyclical ponzi scheme.
Post reply on HN