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Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

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Re: Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

#71
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If more black people are poor, then more black people will be helped by such policies. If we want to help the poor, let's help the poor. But I don't think the causes of poverty are universal, and for lots of black people, they are racially driven. Discussing policies around the "poor generally" while banning discussion of race means abdicating any attempts at integrating schools, means that it is impossible to addr…

> It seems ridiculous to me that the solution is to stop discussing race at all in a country that had legally enshrined anti-black discrimination within living memory. You can make it illegal to discriminate against black people without creating a race database of every single worker in the country. Requiring every employer to ask every applicant "what kind of human race are you?" is so dumb that you can't make that…

Not going to continue arguing because I think my point has been clear.

I think it is telling on HN that many seem more up in arms around the reporting requirements stemming from the 1964 Civil Rights act than any of the huge racial disparities I've identified above.

Given that the government has not been able to do anything about rampant racial discrimination in the real estate space, I am unsure how you think the government could do better if it can't even consider the race of employees or customers when making an equal opportunity case.

Re: Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

#72
post #24

Some of this looks quite.... questionable, and ironically for people that spend so much of their time attacking "the media", this authors would do well to learn something about journalism, and some of it seems downright disingenous. For example, the author talks about representation and talks about that in terms of percentage of white people hired in big tech, but if you dig in to those numbers you find out that basi…

> Why have we chosen these 13 random publications? I'm assuming that the NYT is included literally just because the people who did this study don't like the NYT? These are some of the biggest media publications that write about tech issues, these aren't just "random" choices. This author seems to focus on "big tech media" as is mentioned in the article multiple times, these are big tech media, independent journalists…

The big tech media term is just bullshit. "Big Tech" describes a handful of companies that employ hundreds of thousands of people. "Big Tech media" is either media about big tech - in which case this list is a horrible mis-representation missing some of the most obvious names in big tech journalism (Gruber, Gurman, MKBHD for Apple journalism for example, the Wallstreet Journal breaking the Facebook whistleblower and Theranos). Or it can be read as big "Tech Media" in which case it's also misleading- since the 13 companies in "Big Tech Media" account for less than 1,000 employees compared to the the "Big Tech" companies that account for hundreds of thousands of employees each. You're literally comparing an ant hill to mount everest.

Re: Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

#73
post #13

Where's my PC Bullshit Bingo (TM) card? I need to cross off a couple of fields: 1) reducing "diversity" to "different skin colors" 2) fixating on the Third-Reich-esque concept of "human race" 3) insisting that skin colors can be neatly sorted into 4-5 discrete categories 4) lamenting the ratio between these categories, without stating what the correct ratio should be, and why

I would desperately love for somebody to tell me #4 and how they got there. Most modern (western) social narratives hinge on looking at high level distribution by sex/race/etc and declaring there’s an issue. Nobody is verifying the correctness of these distributions because there are so many confounds it’s nearly impossible, but they move forward anyways.

Now that university enrollment is roughly 60% female, 40% male, there's very little outcry over this disparity and what little exists is drown out by the continued loud cries that universities are biased against women. It appears the ultimate ideal ratio is infinite of my group, zero of your group.

Re: Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

#74

I know two Black technical journalists; they are both blocked by various industry people. Their articles are sourced almost exclusively from investigative reporting/leaks from lower-level employees. Meanwhile super antagonistic while journos will weirdly be omitted from block lists.

Did they publish their articles, though, somewhere at all?

I'd love to read a good quality investigative article any day. I couldn't care less about how much melanin the author got, but I like good stories with the "from below" perspective. They are invariably better than the founders/leaders information bubbles a lot of outlets like to fixate upon.

Re: Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

#75

Focusing on such statistics usually encourages equality of outcome as opposed to equality of opportunity. A far more helpful metric would probably be to know how many people want to be in tech (or tech journalism in this case) but can’t, along with the various factors that are preventing them from getting into their desired profession. If you do then break down the numbers by ethnicity, gender, etc., you may be able…

Can you explain more? It seems like it would only encourage equality of outcome if you took the assumption that black people are innately less interested in tech as true.

It seems to me as though people who make a big deal out of "lack of diversity" in any field are saying that it's because of some form of discrimination or bias in hiring. This is the primary hypothesis they're putting forward, often as fact, as opposed to the reality that it's a hypothesis until it's adequately substantiated with unbiased data collected from multiple sources.

The hypothesis may be true, but it's hard to tell objectively (e.g. I don't know many managers who would even be capable of seeing that they're biased, let alone acknowledging their biases). Accusing people of being biased without evidence isn't constructive for anyone involved either.

So we need to come at the problem a little differently, and accept the fact that we're never going to get a 100% clear-cut answer, but we can get much closer to the truth than we are right now. We also need to accept the fact that the reality will change over time, and so regular interrogation of the hypothesis is necessary.

We can look at a variety of metrics to try to tease out whether there are biases in specific companies (this list is by no means complete, these are just two studies that I can think of conducting off the top of my head):

1. Compare the candidates who actively apply for jobs to those who actually get the jobs. This comparison must not only include candidates' group affiliations (ethnicity, gender, age, etc.), but reliable measures of competency for the particular role for which they applied.

2. Find out from a larger pool of people outside of (1) whether they would have applied for a particular job but did not or could not because of particular barriers.

If you find that the data from (1) shows that there are candidates who have particular group affiliations and meet the competency criteria for the roles, and they are less preferred by a particular company than people of other group affiliations of similar or lower competency, then you can say with a reasonable degree of likelihood that whoever made the hiring decisions at those specific companies is/are probably biased. Not the company as a whole - just the people who made the hiring decisions (there won't be data on the other people in the company, so you can't make judgements of them from such a study). Do that for enough companies in different geographies and you'll get a sense of the different biases in different cities/states/countries (e.g. some places may be biased against competent women, others may be biased against competent older people).

Then, (2) should help us to find out qualitatively what factors are actively contributing to people not even applying for particular jobs in the first place. These may be structural problems in countries'/states'/cities' education systems, lack of access to food or housing, poverty, etc. (the possibilities are almost endless). This will form the basis for more study to figure out how to best address particular structural problems/impediments.

Re: Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN is such an idiosyncratic place. You could frame any number of struggles this way and feel smug about being "above it all." "our people want more of what your people have." -> What "your people have" could be freedom from slavery in 1864, ability to attend the same schools, etc. etc. Framing it in this way does not make the argument less compelling and I have no idea why you think that race-based discrimination is…

I think it's an anti-smug move: the point is we are all "within it all". Yes, we could talk about systemic racism etc. That is why one might engage in a lot of political projects. However a highly specific demand about ratios in upper-middle-class high-status industries... these specific demands are a little harder to parse. The #metoo movement was not about the masses in the industry, it was about the elites. The ac…

I think you are mistaking the media's tendency to focus on controversy in high-status arenas with a broader cultural/political movement that is not at all exclusively focused on elite status.

Calls to integrate schools, calls to reduce our massive incarceration - all of those are designed to be broad based. That those people also want the people who tell media stories and who make political decisions and who run major enterprises to be representative of our population as a whole does not, in my view, indict those people as "elitists."

What's wrong with moralizing? I think some things in how our society is structured ought to change. Is that "theology"?

Re: Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

#77
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This hits the nail on the head. All of my friends who are in the process of becoming journalists have to spend tons of time working unpaid shitty internships just to get a low paying bottom rung job. The only people I know who are even able to get jobs like this either have parents in the industry or have rich parents, often both. This is also true for the humanities in academia writ large - most of the people I know…

The cause is pretty obvious: journalists and other humanities do not pay well. People are not willing to pay for the garbage modern journalists put out, so there is not much money in the field. The only people going into the field, therefore, are those who are independently rich (rich parents) and ideologically motivated (which further reduces the quality of modern journalism).

Sounds like a problem with politicians as well, particularly beyond the local level.

Re: Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain more? It seems like it would only encourage equality of outcome if you took the assumption that black people are innately less interested in tech as true.

It seems to me as though people who make a big deal out of "lack of diversity" in any field are saying that it's because of some form of discrimination or bias in hiring. This is the primary hypothesis they're putting forward, often as fact, as opposed to the reality that it's a hypothesis until it's adequately substantiated with unbiased data collected from multiple sources. The hypothesis may be true, but it's hard…

I don't have the time right now to respond in a longer form, but I will say this:

I make a big deal out of "lack of diversity" in the field. I, like most people I know who think this is a big deal, do not think that this is exclusively or even primarily due to bias in hiring. I attended a majority black school, so I certainly understand that there are upstream problems.

All of the problems you identified with (2) are still problems of equality around opportunity, not outcome. Identifying that there is a problem, even if it doesn't naturally point to solutions, is still worth doing - because as you can see in this thread, there are plenty of people with a lot invested in denying that there is any problem at all.

Re: Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From what I've read, the racism in France is quite bad Links

https://www.connexionfrance.com/Archive/Clubs-accused-of-rac... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/08/sports/psg-racial-profili... https://www.luminosoa.org/site/books/m/10.1525/luminos.39/

Several isolated incidents does not make a larger problem

Re: Tech journalism is less diverse than tech (2020)

#80

Compared to programming and tech, success in a lot of fields in the humanities, including journalism is far more connected to who you know, what family you were born into, what college you went to, and your overall personal network. In such an environment, it is unsurprising that there is a severe lack of diversity. I have never received a satisfactory answer for why a lot of people from these fields are all about "E…

> I have never received a satisfactory answer for why a lot of people from these fields are all about "Everyone should learn to code" initiatives, but not, say "Everyone should learn to be a citizen journalist", or "Everyone should learn to be a copy editor".

It's easy: they want to protect their field. This is basically a "not in my backyard" movement. "X industry should be more diverse. Not mine, because that would means more competition for me."

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