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Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

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Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#81
post #24

I'm not disputing the article. Discrimination happens. Humans are human. But let's not lose sight or minimize that women are (currently and historically) discriminated against on a scale that dwarfs this - in hiring, salary, and society at large.

Historically, completely agreed. Your other points of hiring, salary, and society at large I would not agree with outside of some edge cases that still need to be cleaned up.

> Historically, completely agreed

Even historically speaking, that's a stretch. For a long period of human history, survival meant being able to plow fields, wrangle horses, chop down trees, hunt wooly mammoths, fight lions and all the other things that my ancestors would be ashamed of me for not being able to do. Men were expected to, and did, protect and provide for women because most men find those tasks easier than most women. Not even the hardest feminist would call that protection "discriminatory". It's only been relatively recently, on a grand scale, that most women could perform the tasks that needed to be performed to survive. More or less as soon as that happened, most of civilization became egalitarian almost overnight. There was some pushback in the 70's but as Bill Maher pointed out "we couldn't understand what you were rebelling against! Men in my father's day used to say 'I'll be damned if any wife of mine ever has to go to work!'"

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#82

Humans gonna human. No one group is particularly more righteous, as much as the recent zeitgeist wants to lull us into this belief. Many people even believe that countries would be better off if mostly women ran it. Well, all you’d have is a bunch of corrupt women instead of a bunch of corrupt men.

How dare you suggest the problem is intrinsically in us all!

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Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#83

Upon reading the headline I immediately wondered if childcare and cleaning were in the set of the female dominated careers. My hypothesis is that men are considered much much riskier hires for certain roles. The reason I thought of these two roles in particular is because socially I've often heard expressed worries that men in daycare are more likely to be sex offenders, and for cleaning I've often come across the se…

Well, sure. Put another way: discrimination is highest in professions where a group is discriminated against the most, and ignoring the strongest sources makes the overall effect weaker. Not big surprises. Do we want to do that though?

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#84
post #51

Way to spin it: more evidence for the wage inequality between man and female caused by the patriarchy which forces woman into low paying jobs and men into high paying ones. The few man who were willing to accept a low paying job were actively redirected towards higher paying ones.

"The patriarchy" has no problem giving men low paying jobs. How many restaurant dishwashers are women? Furthermore the data found no bias against women in male-dominated professions. Instead, the data here suggest that prejudice is not gender-specific but universal, and gender disparities naturally lead to people pigeonholing you and those professions (gender stereotyping).

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#85
post #7

" a profit maximizing firm should not discriminate between workers of equal productivity based on immutable characteristics " Gender is an immutable characteristic? That's debatable. But whether it is or isn't doesn't seem to make discriminating by it better or worse. That makes immutability a poor discriminator of tolerable discrimination.

> Gender is an immutable characteristic? That's debatable Actually I don't think anybody's debating that - transexuals say that they were born as whatever gender they identify with, they just say it doesn't match what their body looks like. Everybody seems to agree that it's immutable, even if there are people who can't seem to quite agree on how it's identified.

> Actually I don't think anybody's debating that

In LGBTQ+ circles, everyone is debating everything all the time, and that's one of the problems when trying to assess their positions.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically, completely agreed. Your other points of hiring, salary, and society at large I would not agree with outside of some edge cases that still need to be cleaned up.

> Historically, completely agreed Even historically speaking, that's a stretch. For a long period of human history, survival meant being able to plow fields, wrangle horses, chop down trees, hunt wooly mammoths, fight lions and all the other things that my ancestors would be ashamed of me for not being able to do. Men were expected to, and did, protect and provide for women because most men find those tasks easier th…

[deleted]

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One factor that may be contributing to this, especially in the art world, is survivorship bias driven by higher male risk tolerances. Men have much more boom or bust outcomes in their lives and careers due to lower risk aversion. What this could look like in the art world is a lower tendency than women towards a stable yet income-capped career like art teacher, and a higher tendency towards a risky yet unlimited pote…

Note the hypothesis about risk being a predominantly male trait is also consistent at the other end with men making up 90%+ of prison population in pretty much any form of government or society. I haven't heard many feminists argue for a female quota in prisons yet.

Nobody looks at the imbalance in incarceration rates and assumes that police and the justice system are systemically sexist against men, but they certainly draw that conclusion along racial lines based on the same outcome.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#88
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or workplace deaths, 10:1, or suicides 3.5:1 or higher.

Claiming that feminism does not talk about these issues is at best a sign of naivety about feminism and at worst being disingenuous. One may disagree with their conclusion that the origin of these problem also has to do with patriarchy, but to claim that these forms of suffering that disproportionately affect men are ignored by feminists is false.

Can you link to any examples?

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#89

I interviewed at a hair salon once. The owner/manager was female as were all other employees. I'm a guy. Needless to say, I did not hear back. The owner told me during the interview that her clients are all females, mostly wealthy, with many 40-50 years old and she basically explained I would not fit in.

hmm, I have never really thought about it before but I don't think I have ever seen a single heterosexual male hairdresser in my life outside of a barbershop. Never really even registered I guess because that's how it has always been in my experience but interesting now that you mention it. I know there are a ton of male hairdressers just from going to barbershops. Wonder if they just gravitate towards barber shops o…

Heck, how would you identify a hairdresser walking by the street?

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#90
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or workplace deaths, 10:1, or suicides 3.5:1 or higher.

Claiming that feminism does not talk about these issues is at best a sign of naivety about feminism and at worst being disingenuous. One may disagree with their conclusion that the origin of these problem also has to do with patriarchy, but to claim that these forms of suffering that disproportionately affect men are ignored by feminists is false.

Mainstream feminism and the activist reporters ignore the issue. It's inconvenient to the narrative they adhere to.

The Google gender pay gap lawsuit was covered extensively a few years ago. It's outcome (men were actually underpaid based on the data) that resulted in a large number of male employees at Google getting payouts and salary boosts was essentially ignored.

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