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I analyzed SaaS billing dark patterns

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Re: I analyzed SaaS billing dark patterns

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am thinking the argument against would be that the company's contract with you was supported by consideration: they provide the software in exchange for your payment. You are then sending what is intended as an addendum to the original contract, but the company never agreed to the additional terms. In effect, it is an offer of a second contract that is not supported by consideration and likely never accepted by the…

"The trick is making it the same day you sign the deal and making it all inclusive." I think the original contract is enforceable at the time it was originally agreed to. Coming up with additional terms, even if they were on the same day, wouldn't not change the original contract. Imagine signing up for a credit card offer and then sending a certified letter to the bank informing them that you will only pay a lower i…

The enforceability of the original contract is not being challenged in this example.

It’s about required notices. Basically the contract has opt-out provisions that they hope you either won’t notice or will forget to opt-out of.

The idea is simple, you just reverse this dynamic by immediately and pre-emptively opting out of every optional element of the contract that could cause you to incur additional financial obligation.

Re: I analyzed SaaS billing dark patterns

#163
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general I don't think it's fair to describe anything as a dark pattern this is clearly communicated in a contract. Same with "Here’s a similar problem with a different scenario: You sign a one-year contract with a SaaS provider. You start paying immediately. The process to get API access, build integrations, set up the software, and onboard and train your team takes three months. In those three months, you still p…

This is like arguing nothing is unethical as long as it's legal.

I bought a bunch of Bananas and they sat in my kitchen bowl for 2 weeks. I ate probably half of them in that time, but after a couple of weeks, as expected they are off.

I demand Bananas compensate me for my losses. Typical banana dark patterns.

Re: I analyzed SaaS billing dark patterns

#164
post #34

AWS costs are somehow always higher than your estimate. Even when using their little calculator. That's the dark pattern right there.

Emmm, no? You can download detailed billing and drill down if you want. If you see differences, one reason is that with hourly billing your monthly bills will be different, depending whether it’s a 28, 30 or 31 day month.

For people just starting, I can see it being true. A pedestrian example might be a Lambda. You look at the pricing on their site and calculate it down to the penny, but the cost ends up higher. Because the Lambda pricing page doesn't mention the Cloudwatch logs that were created with your Lambda, but they aren't free. (Leaving free tier stuff out of the picture).

Re: I analyzed SaaS billing dark patterns

#165

I read the article and after a few para's I know that the author now works for a SaaS expense management company and I am reading marketing material.

While some marketing is more crass than others, there is no doubt that advising people of dark patterns is valuable, and probably worth money to mitigate. Every security advisory in the last decade has been marketing material for a security company or researcher. Everything should be read critically, and this article reminded me to drop a subscription.

You can have an opinion without being dishonest about your interest behind it or its controversy, no?

Re: I analyzed SaaS billing dark patterns

#166
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general I don't think it's fair to describe anything as a dark pattern this is clearly communicated in a contract. Same with "Here’s a similar problem with a different scenario: You sign a one-year contract with a SaaS provider. You start paying immediately. The process to get API access, build integrations, set up the software, and onboard and train your team takes three months. In those three months, you still p…

This is like arguing nothing is unethical as long as it's legal.

Come on now, you have to know that's a gross exaggeration.

It's arguing that no deal between two parties is unethical as long as both parties are clearly aware of all aspects of the deal and their consequences and neither party is coerced into agreeing to the deal.

Re: I analyzed SaaS billing dark patterns

#167
post #106
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general I don't think it's fair to describe anything as a dark pattern this is clearly communicated in a contract. Same with "Here’s a similar problem with a different scenario: You sign a one-year contract with a SaaS provider. You start paying immediately. The process to get API access, build integrations, set up the software, and onboard and train your team takes three months. In those three months, you still p…

That’s not really a fair way to evaluate contracts for fairness and ethical conduct. Not only does the contract have the obligation to be clear (and let’s be blunt the people that do this are often not trying to be clear about what they are doing) it also needs to meet basic standards of reasonableness. Specifically, to the extent that a contract diverges sharply from the general understanding each party has about ho…

What you're talking about is just clearly not the same point that I made.

I said: "In general I don't think it's fair to describe anything as a dark pattern this is clearly communicated in a contract."

You said: "or example, it would not be reasonable to have a single sentence buried in the middle of a 20 page SaaS contract that obligated you to purchase cat food,"

I specified that it has to be clearly communicated. You responded with an example of something that very obviously is not clearly communicated.

The examples that OP gave are generally things that are clearly communicated. When you sign up for a SaaS service and agree to pay for a set number of seats for a set duration, it's clearly communicated - after all, it's an absolutely basic part of the agreement and one that always has to be actively discussed between the parties (the SaaS vendor must tell you that you're billed on a per-seat basis, and you must tell them how many seats you need).

What you're describing is all true in theory but not applicable at all to my post or the examples of OP that I cited.

Re: I analyzed SaaS billing dark patterns

#168
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not really a fair way to evaluate contracts for fairness and ethical conduct. Not only does the contract have the obligation to be clear (and let’s be blunt the people that do this are often not trying to be clear about what they are doing) it also needs to meet basic standards of reasonableness. Specifically, to the extent that a contract diverges sharply from the general understanding each party has about ho…

What you're talking about is just clearly not the same point that I made. I said: "In general I don't think it's fair to describe anything as a dark pattern this is clearly communicated in a contract." You said: "or example, it would not be reasonable to have a single sentence buried in the middle of a 20 page SaaS contract that obligated you to purchase cat food," I specified that it has to be clearly communicated.…

I still disagree with your premise. You’re saying that as long as the terms are clearly communicated they’re not a dark pattern, aka unethical.

I think if you’re using your superior understanding of the dynamics of using your product to create unreasonable gotcha situations that customers would not have agreed to if they had any choice then that’s dark patterns.

There are lots of examples but most revolve around lock-ins and ratchet type mechanics. Things like making it easy to create data but punitively expensive to get it out in order to switch products.

Things like making it easy to scale up the service but literally impossible to downsize also can qualify, which was the issue we were both referring to.

Or your example of a setup period could also qualify. Sure if it’s like super clear I guess so, but it’s pretty easy to see that often in that scenario people don’t realize the implications of the “onboarding period” and it’s a bit of a trick.

I’m speaking from personal experience this kind of trickery is rampant in trying to interact with many of these services. I got far into negotiations with a household name marketing platform and notice they never once mentioned the mandatory fees for onboarding. They also never said a word about outbound email limits and data limits etc. I knew only from stories from someone who had gone with them, gotten locked into a year of spending, and discovered in the first week that the service was literally unsuitable for them given their requirements. I was in a similar negotiation with them at the time and they were trying to trap me in a similar way.

Humans have a pretty intrinsic concept of fairness. There’s a cottage industry of SaaS companies that don’t care about that and many of us find it exhausting and not ethical. They use deceptive tactics with customers and anti-competitive tactics to acquire or eliminate competitors so you don’t have choices.

It’s a fucking crisis. Which is why this whole thread is raging with comments.

Re: I analyzed SaaS billing dark patterns

#169

The dark pattern I like the least is the one where providers do not let you set a limit or budget for charges to your account per billing period. For example, I've yet to find a cloud provider that lets you, say, put a $200 a month spending limit on your account. The best we get is a notification system.

Imagine the issues on something like AWS, Google Cloud, Digital Ocean, Rackspace, etc. Imagine if a company sets a limit. One that allows for burst and growth. Then they forget to update it, and then one day, all their servers, data and everything else is gone. Even if things are offline, they accrue costs, so the only thing to do when a limit is reached is destroy everything. What’s the balance?

I'm implementing this in my cloud hosting platform (https://primcloud.com) and how we plan to do it is email triggers when certain thresholds are met, and if no action is taken, give a grace period before taking stuff offline.

Yes they will be charged for that grace period, but setting a limit of $200 and being charged $250 sure beats getting a random $1,000 charge.

Re: I analyzed SaaS billing dark patterns

#170
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're talking about is just clearly not the same point that I made. I said: "In general I don't think it's fair to describe anything as a dark pattern this is clearly communicated in a contract." You said: "or example, it would not be reasonable to have a single sentence buried in the middle of a 20 page SaaS contract that obligated you to purchase cat food," I specified that it has to be clearly communicated.…

I still disagree with your premise. You’re saying that as long as the terms are clearly communicated they’re not a dark pattern, aka unethical. I think if you’re using your superior understanding of the dynamics of using your product to create unreasonable gotcha situations that customers would not have agreed to if they had any choice then that’s dark patterns. There are lots of examples but most revolve around lock…

The problem is that you're not defining "dark pattern" reasonably.

"You’re saying that as long as the terms are clearly communicated they’re not a dark pattern, aka unethical."

You're saying that something being unethical makes it a dark pattern, and that's wrong. If I rob you at gunpoint, that's definitely unethical, but it's not a dark pattern.

"I think if you’re using your superior understanding of the dynamics of using your product to create unreasonable gotcha situations that customers would not have agreed to if they had any choice then that’s dark patterns."

Again, this is in no way relevant to the examples cited. Telling the customer that any seats they sign up for must be paid for a full year is not an unreasonably gotcha situation. It's a concept that's clearly explained, and one that won't be a surprise to anyone who has any experience purchasing SaaS products, because it's common industry practice.

As to the idea that they don't have a choice to agree, that's virtually never true with SaaS. It is an enormously competitive industry with multiple players in every major area. On top of that, if you're talking about tech companies buying SaaS products, they also have the option to build their own tools if they don't like the options that are available.

"Things like making it easy to create data but punitively expensive to get it out in order to switch products."

Again, this is true but in no way relevant to anything I've said. If it's clearly communicated that you're going to have to pay a million dollars to get your data out, it's a bad business practice but not a dark pattern.

You're applying the label "dark pattern" incorrectly to any SaaS practice you dislike. The phrase has a specific meaning, and any practice that is clearly and honestly communicated up front, even if it's a horrible practice, is not a dark pattern.

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