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I would like closure, but I'll take honesty

freddiedeboer.substack.com

131–140 of 211 posts

Re: I would like closure, but I'll take honesty

#131
People still have a problem relating to others with severe mental illness (and addiction, for that matter.) The script they expect is, "I have learned that what I did wrong, I'm a better person now, and I'm ready to be trusted again."

That's what they expect, what they demand. But this guy can't say "I learned" or "Here's my case for why I am ready to be trusted again." Not honestly.

In my past (thankfully not recently) I've had to do a somewhat dishonest apology where I said I had "learned" that X was wrong and I wouldn't do it again, when really what I had learned was that I needed to manage my depression more carefully so that I wouldn't get into a state where doing X seemed like the only bearable option even though I knew it would disappoint people.

In my case, it was possible for me to insulate people from dealing with my depression directly, by translating my apology into terms that were comfortable for them. I could recite the script they wanted to hear, because I could honestly say the important parts, "I learned, and I'm ready to be trusted again," because the trajectory of my depression is something I understand pretty well and can anticipate and manage. I am fortunate that way. The only way I had to be dishonest was in omitting the true details of what I learned and why I thought I could be trusted in the future, replacing those details with the ones they wanted to hear.

This guy can't really do that, so he can't conform to the script. He can't "learn" that it's bad to have a psychotic episode, he can't "learn" how not to do it, he can only learn not to ignore his psychiatrist and not to go off his meds, and I think deep down he knows that if the effectiveness of his medication drops, because of a change in his underlying condition or some other factor, his judgment may be impaired to the point where he can't be trusted to keep taking it.

I think what probably rubs people the wrong way is that he won't say he's responsible for what he did in the way they want him to say he's responsible. It makes sense to me that he won't say it, because that would be claiming that he is capable of being responsible in a manic state which is a potentially dangerous and damaging lie. I understand him not being willing to say that, even under duress.

Re: I would like closure, but I'll take honesty

#132
post #71
post #7

> But in fact I had not intended to cancel Harris; I hadn’t intended anything at all. I would have attacked him, physically, had he been present, over a pure delusion, which I say with shame I can’t put into words. But I was not thinking that I would hurt his reputation. I was not thinking of cause and effect in any conventional way. I was not in a mental state where I was capable of understanding long-term consequen…

> To what extent are social media increasing the severity of mental health issues themselves? As an analogy, I consider photosensitive epilepsy. It is unlikely that the genetic cause of epilepsy is somehow a recent mutation; we can assume that an average human a thousand years ago would have been approximately as susceptible as a human today. But for nearly the full history of humanity it would have been relatively r…

I think there’s another layer that’s not present with the epilepsy case. With epilepsy, it’s an unintentional and tangential side effect of a new technology. Engagement apps instead take advantage of our mental shortcomings as a core part of their business models.

All that’s to say: you’re right, but with social media the problems are exacerbated because the incentives demand it.

Re: I would like closure, but I'll take honesty

#133

Legitimate question to the folks on here that are defending this guy: What are your thoughts on this guy’s (thoroughly spelled out) views regarding race and intelligence? I’ll start: I think his opinions are wrong and bad, and I sincerely doubt that the people that take issue with him do so explicitly because of what to place in 2017. This strikes me as a deliberate misdirect to enable his victimhood. And to answer h…

My thoughts on the whole race/IQ debate: it's more or less a perma-banned topic on most forums where constructive debate takes place, and your comment is an excellent example of why.

Re: I would like closure, but I'll take honesty

#134
post #11

It is not, in fact, "unambiguously a lie" to relate to others deBoer's grave (and admitted, and unambiguously real) misconduct without the full context of his mental illness. People are entitled to form their own opinions about deBoer's credibility, and he is not entitled to set conditions on how they do that.

> People are entitled to form their own opinions about deBoer's credibility, and he is not entitled to set conditions on how they do that. I don't know what conditions he's set, he's just asking people to include context. Context which completely changes how most people would view that incident. Maybe "unambiguously a lie" is a too strong and you can't tell a lie by taking an action out of context, but if you can thi…

His position is that “If you don’t support my extensive writing about race science, you’re a bigot and a liar because of an incident unrelated to my extensive writing about race science, which has singularly made me a victim of the mob - not my actual writing or opinions. Any criticism of me personally is by definition predicated on the thing I said in 2017 and not my body of work since then.”

That’s the condition that he set!

Re: I would like closure, but I'll take honesty

#135
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever it is, we should all be able to agree that it's not "unambiguous".

If someone suffers from a psychotic episode, and you accuse him of something he does during that psychotic episode without mentioning anything about the fact that he was suffering from a psychotic episode, then that is unambiguously a lie by omission. People who suffer from psychosis do not behave in a reasonable manner. A psychosis is a medical emergency. It's like complaining that someone caused a traffic accident…

Is it unambiguously a lie if I were to say “Based off what I’ve read of this guy’s writing, this guy is a piece of shit racist who has openly admitted to being randomly abusive to strangers.”? Or am I morally obligated to say “He also appears from my perspective to leverage the language of mental illness to excuse himself and attack his critics.”?

What if I don’t believe his narrative _AT ALL_? Am I a liar then? All I’ve read here is a guy insisting that it’s unfair to dislike him. I certainly don’t trust his intellectual honesty, why on earth would I be compelled to believe his narrative simply because he insists that it’s hurting him that I don’t?

Re: I would like closure, but I'll take honesty

#136
post #33

> I have asked that people consider that I deserve neither total condemnation nor total exoneration. This. In a lot of circles I move there is a tendency to "total condemnation". We can be better to each other. When we do not deserve it is when we need it the most. Peace, love, respect foster peace, love and respect. "Total condemnation" might make the condemner have some temporary good feelings, but does no good for…

Also, "To those of you who are not people I harmed in my psychotic episode in August 2017… what is it you think I owe you?" There seems to be this tendency that people who only learned about something 5 minutes ago get outrage and demand retribution. Like it's a reflex. The mob has vigilante tendencies. Let's go write an email to someone's employer and demand that they fire them. Millions of people band together and…

I think it’s because the offender is perceived to have harmed the group to which the outraged individual belongs or aspires to belong.

And/or for the likes/retweets/upvotes.

Re: I would like closure, but I'll take honesty

#137
post #79
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To what extent are social media increasing the severity of mental health issues themselves? As an analogy, I consider photosensitive epilepsy. It is unlikely that the genetic cause of epilepsy is somehow a recent mutation; we can assume that an average human a thousand years ago would have been approximately as susceptible as a human today. But for nearly the full history of humanity it would have been relatively r…

There is nothing to suggest that the sort of disorder DeBoer has was not present in the past. The consequences would harsher on everyone and there would be no meds. Note that he nearly got arrested for unrelated conduct. It was not social media issue.

In fact, we know for sure that it exists in cultures with no access to media or technology in the recent past, and severe episodes of bipolar (mania) have been explained as the victim being possessed. One case: https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2015.1...

Re: I would like closure, but I'll take honesty

#138
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is arguing that externalities don't matter. You have to respond to events that happen in your life. Inner peace is whether those families can come to terms with what happened and be happy, or whether they will live in emotional turmoil forever.

I think it's extremely hard to come to terms with what happened and be happy, if what happened (or rather, what is happening) is "I'm currently being chased out of my own home because people online want me dead because my child was gunned down in a domestic terrorist attack".

You'd think so, but some of the autobiographies of Holocaust survivors appear to show that it's possible.

Re: I would like closure, but I'll take honesty

#139

Legitimate question to the folks on here that are defending this guy: What are your thoughts on this guy’s (thoroughly spelled out) views regarding race and intelligence? I’ll start: I think his opinions are wrong and bad, and I sincerely doubt that the people that take issue with him do so explicitly because of what to place in 2017. This strikes me as a deliberate misdirect to enable his victimhood. And to answer h…

My thoughts on the whole race/IQ debate: it's more or less a perma-banned topic on most forums where constructive debate takes place, and your comment is an excellent example of why.

Sorry, I’m genuinely confused here.

I asked his defenders if they support his views on race science, and brought up the possibility that people dislike him for reasons other than the 2017 event.

Your position is that it’s impolite to bring up a writer’s body of work because… why?

Edit: It’s kind of hard not to interpret your post as “I believe in race science and it makes me uncomfortable to be asked a question like that so plainly, so I will fall back on calling you rude.”

Re: I would like closure, but I'll take honesty

#140
post #11

It is not, in fact, "unambiguously a lie" to relate to others deBoer's grave (and admitted, and unambiguously real) misconduct without the full context of his mental illness. People are entitled to form their own opinions about deBoer's credibility, and he is not entitled to set conditions on how they do that.

No, if one does not know the full context, it is not lying to omit it. If they do know it, then leaving out known relevant information is pretty unambiguously a lie of omission. As you said yourself:

> People are ..not entitled to... do that.

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