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I analyzed SaaS billing dark patterns

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Re: I analyzed SaaS billing dark patterns

#41

Post by CPLX »

Plasmoid wrote: post #36
CPLX wrote: post #23

These are far from the worst patterns. I've seen so much awfulness out there. My favorite recent one was a renewal if you don't cancel by a deadline that's months ahead of the actual end of the contract period and it also had a substantial rate increase and all the language that we supposedly agreed to wasn't actually present in the contract we signed. Those terms were in one of those "incorporate by reference" claus…

Does it actually work? Have you tested in in court?

Haven't made it to court but it would certainly be legally sound. Courts love certified mail and formal notices it's not even clear what counterargument they could have. They require notice, and we gave notice and can prove it.

But in real life what it really does it get them to back off and go back to having a normal negotiation about what we do want to do for renewal instead of the bullshit attempt to mislead and trap us.

Needless to say if there's any viable alternatives to companies that do this we take them but in some categories all the options suck.

Re: I analyzed SaaS billing dark patterns

#42

Post by indus »

digitalengineer wrote: post #14

Hubspot. The yearly plan is way cheaper. But you need to cancel it 3 months in advance or you’re on the hook for ‘the same period’, thus another year. No reminder email of course.

applicable to a majority of annual contracts of top SaaS vendors.

Re: I analyzed SaaS billing dark patterns

#43

Post by dqv »

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #2

> Free trials should not require a credit card. Collecting your payment information is an obvious red flag that you will be billed as soon as the free trial period ends. I remember many people on HN defending this pattern saying that they are not interested in people who don't want to provide their CC details, that they are bad customers, they just want a free ride, and they are not sorry for setting it up like this.…

It’s about what pisses off fewer customers. If I was stubborn and believed everything I read on HN about customers, I would continue to piss off a lot of people by designing under the assumption that I should only get CC details at the end of the trial.

For certain types of customers, it is surprising and annoying to have to fill out CC info at the end of a trial. The customer gets the notice the trial is ending soon, but ignores the part about adding CC info to keep using after the trial. Then the day comes, we get them on the phone to ask if they will stay with us, they say yes but the person who has control of the CC is gone for the day. You’re not really going to turn it off are you? Sorry, but we have to.

So the easy solution is to make the credit card form recommended but skippable. Skippers just need to know that the trial won’t be extended if they can’t pay. In either case, they still need to give the OK to charge at the end of the trial.

Re: I analyzed SaaS billing dark patterns

#44

Post by niklasd »

indus wrote: post #33
tie_ wrote: post #31

Here in Germany, physical businesses have even more egregious subscription policies than most "dark" SaaS-es. Think, you do not cancel 3 months before expiration date - congrats, you're now signed up for another year. As a result, ended up writing a small PWA to keep track of my contracts and subscriptions.

Whaat! This one is new. You mean subscriptions from your neighborhood store such as milk, bread, newspapers, etc?

Newspapers, fitness studios, mobile providers, railway discount ticket (Bahncard). Can't say for neighborhood stores, I haven't really used a subscription at such a shop.

Re: I analyzed SaaS billing dark patterns

#45

Post by indus »

CPLX wrote: post #23

These are far from the worst patterns. I've seen so much awfulness out there. My favorite recent one was a renewal if you don't cancel by a deadline that's months ahead of the actual end of the contract period and it also had a substantial rate increase and all the language that we supposedly agreed to wasn't actually present in the contract we signed. Those terms were in one of those "incorporate by reference" claus…

Interesting idea.

But isn't there a risk that if the company that gets your certified mail, reads it, and then cancels your account?

Re: I analyzed SaaS billing dark patterns

#46

Post by tie_ »

indus wrote: post #33
tie_ wrote: post #31

Here in Germany, physical businesses have even more egregious subscription policies than most "dark" SaaS-es. Think, you do not cancel 3 months before expiration date - congrats, you're now signed up for another year. As a result, ended up writing a small PWA to keep track of my contracts and subscriptions.

Whaat! This one is new. You mean subscriptions from your neighborhood store such as milk, bread, newspapers, etc?

More like gym, "clubs" (Verein-s), mobile phone, internet, electricity, etc. It's an established contractual practice, and e.g. Telekom are not in any way obligated to notify you when your cancellation date approaches. They can very well sue you, however, should you refuse to pay your automatically-renewed-in-advance contract.

Even in the cases where you're allowed to cancel on the last day of the subscription, we as humans are very prone to forget to do that, particularly for longer-term contracts. Tracking contracts and subscription deadlines is a damn profitable habit that I wish I had acquired much earlier.

Re: I analyzed SaaS billing dark patterns

#47

Post by r00fus »

elias94 wrote: post #11

I forgot the AWS password once for an account with only one S3 bucket. I did the recovery procedure but they wanted to verify my identity using my document. I send them my ID, which was with a different address from my account information. They didn't accept my ID and I wasn't able to stop the service and the recurring payment. Fortunately I registered my payment with a prepaid credit card, so was easy to empty the c…

Is failure to pay (ie, card authorization) good enough for inability to cancel? Couldn't they just invoice you and hold you liable for fees regardless?

Re: I analyzed SaaS billing dark patterns

#48

Post by ZephyrBlu »

hermes8329 wrote: post #37
schnebbau wrote: post #28

> Your company needs a CRM, so you sign a year-long contract for, say, 50 seats on your chosen SaaS CRM. Then — yikes! After six months, half your team is laid off. Will the CRM let you adjust and pay for 25 seats for the remainder of their contract? > That’s a big NO. Unused seats? Still gotta pay for ‘em. (It’s called “SaaS waste” for a reason.) You committed to paying for 50 seats for a year. The CRM may have made…

Saas has obscene markups

It has "obscene markups" based on costs, but that is not how SaaS is priced. It's priced on value.

Re: I analyzed SaaS billing dark patterns

#49

Post by indus »

encoderer wrote: post #27

Of all the nasty things somebody can do with billing, I'm surprised the author leads with card-upfront trials. "Free trials should not require a credit card." This is opinion presented as fact. This is not a dark pattern. Totally unrestricted free trials are wonderful, you've invested a ton in your product and you want a prospective customer to experience everything. But there are legions of abusers and bad actors of…

Dont you think users with malintent abuse the platform irrespective of whether a card is on file or not?

Re: I analyzed SaaS billing dark patterns

#50

Post by dmitrygr »

r00fus wrote: post #47
elias94 wrote: post #11

I forgot the AWS password once for an account with only one S3 bucket. I did the recovery procedure but they wanted to verify my identity using my document. I send them my ID, which was with a different address from my account information. They didn't accept my ID and I wasn't able to stop the service and the recurring payment. Fortunately I registered my payment with a prepaid credit card, so was easy to empty the c…

Is failure to pay (ie, card authorization) good enough for inability to cancel? Couldn't they just invoice you and hold you liable for fees regardless?

Only until they try to collect and you produce proof that you tried A LOT to cancel
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