Chess Grandmaster Kasparov on Mob Mentality and Groupthink • Hacker News Board

Re: Chess Grandmaster Kasparov on Mob Mentality and Groupthink

#81

Post by temp8964 » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 8:59 PM UTC

salt-thrower wrote: post #26

glangdale wrote: post #17

> Schools are being pressured to remove books and cancel professors for spreading the “wrong” ideas. These sentiments are all too familiar to me, and to anyone who has survived life in a dictatorship. The only answer is more freedom, more speech, not less. This is a good sentiment, but it's worth noting that the overwhelming majority of pressure to "cancel" books and academics is directed at the left by the right, re…

Yeah, the Right complains about cancel culture while also trying to cancel any book or curriculum that accurately describes the history of racism in America. They are well-practiced at suppressing school materials that make them uncomfortable, and they've been doing it for decades. (And no, I'm not talking about Critical Race Theory; they have been suppressing even the most basic topics around race for a long time).…

> "trying to cancel any book or curriculum that accurately describes the history of racism in America".

I am not sure where did you get this information. r/politics?

What most parents are against at are not something "accurately describes the history of racism in America". This is just b.s. way to describe what's happening in the debate. What most parents are against at are race-loaded indoctrination on kids. Project 1619, for example, has been widely criticized by historians. To call it "curriculum that accurately describes the history of racism in America" is just a blatant lie.

Other stuff pushed by far-left activists such as white fragility and antiracism are extremely divisive and very very bad for kids. Those are things parents are against. Not "book or curriculum that accurately describes the history of racism in America".

Re: Chess Grandmaster Kasparov on Mob Mentality and Groupthink

#82

Post by Bud » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 8:59 PM UTC

kadabra9 wrote: post #38

salt-thrower wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the Right complains about cancel culture while also trying to cancel any book or curriculum that accurately describes the history of racism in America. They are well-practiced at suppressing school materials that make them uncomfortable, and they've been doing it for decades. (And no, I'm not talking about Critical Race Theory; they have been suppressing even the most basic topics around race for a long time).…

We can and should teach about the history of racism in America. We should not however be telling children to use an “oppression matrix” to group and divide one another by identity, teaching children that if they are white they are automatically racist, or teaching historical fabrications like the 1619 project.

Please support your made-up assertion that the 1619 Project is a "historical fabrication".

Re: Chess Grandmaster Kasparov on Mob Mentality and Groupthink

#83

Post by stevenicr » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 8:59 PM UTC

dragontamer wrote: post #28

oh_sigh wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it? Anecdotally, I see a lot of news about conservatives trying to "cancel" books in their kids libraries whose topics they don't like, but regarding professors, it seems like those getting cancelled are getting cancelled by the left, not the right.

https://www.texastribune.org/2010/03/22/sboe-removes-thomas-... https://archive.thinkprogress.org/texas-board-of-education-c... Thomas Jefferson was successfully removed from all Texas schoolbooks, as one example of many. The Right is no stranger to censorship.

You got me to wonder, thanks for providing the links.

I have seen stories recently about removing Jefferson from the public view / cancelling him, based upon far-left / progressive / anti-racist/slavery ideals (I think/assume) that are removing monuments around the country (and murals and building names, etc), not right-wing censorship, so I was quite curious.

sadly some of the supporting links are 404 on the thinkprogress page you linked to.

However reading the texas tribune article it says that Jefferson was not removed from all Texas schoolbooks, it says that he was removed from a list of 'revolutionary thinkers' - the other references were all left in.

- So this is kind of a red herring thing?

From the TexasTribune Article you linked:

"the Colbert Report got the board's move technically correct, noting it removed Jefferson from a list of "revolutionary thinkers," which is exactly what the board did. Colbert simply didn't provide the context that Jefferson was mentioned elsewhere. (Colbert, of course, is comedy and can't be held to journalistic standards.) "

... "None of the news stories from the day in The Dallas Morning News, the Houston Chronicle and San Antonio Express-News (which share state coverage), the Austin American-Statesman, and The Texas Tribune (that's me) mentioned the Jefferson amendment, much less asserted he had been removed entirely from the curriculum. "

Not that I disagree that "The Right is no stranger to censorship." - however this is not a good example for such, and perhaps the bigger debate should center around what tactics of censoring should be out of bounds, and example of such from different 'sides'.

Although it becomes tougher to paint sides when we have to wonder if a twitter mob is a side? if none of the leaders of a side are advocating for thing X - and which leaders are actual leaders of a side, and which influencers are a thing, and if 'leaders' denounce an influencer, then does it really count for/against a 'side'.. much to consider with all this.

Re: Chess Grandmaster Kasparov on Mob Mentality and Groupthink

#84

Post by amusedcyclist » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 8:59 PM UTC

kadabra9 wrote: post #38

salt-thrower wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the Right complains about cancel culture while also trying to cancel any book or curriculum that accurately describes the history of racism in America. They are well-practiced at suppressing school materials that make them uncomfortable, and they've been doing it for decades. (And no, I'm not talking about Critical Race Theory; they have been suppressing even the most basic topics around race for a long time).…

We can and should teach about the history of racism in America. We should not however be telling children to use an “oppression matrix” to group and divide one another by identity, teaching children that if they are white they are automatically racist, or teaching historical fabrications like the 1619 project.

Its not about dividing by identity, different people face different kinds of challenges, isn't that the kind of nuance that you should be teaching at schools.

Re: Chess Grandmaster Kasparov on Mob Mentality and Groupthink

#85

Post by tomp » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 9:00 PM UTC

civilized wrote: post #54

javajosh wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You felt the anti-woke side made the stronger case, but you still disagree? Can you add some more detail here?

The challenge with this debate is that the meaning of "cancel culture" is too broad, verging on incoherent. Examples of "cancellation" range from people who experienced harsh consequences for minimal or imaginary "offenses", like Justine Sacco and Donald McNeil, to powerful serial sex offenders like Harvey Weinstein.

But surely you can simultaneously think that Weinstein shouldn't have been cancelled (mostly by his almost-equally perverted friends who dropped him like hot lava when he started becoming toxic, to save their own reputations, after having cozied up to him for years/decades) and still think he should be charged/jailed for actual crimes by actual justice system.

Re: Chess Grandmaster Kasparov on Mob Mentality and Groupthink

#86

Post by amalcon » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 9:00 PM UTC

systemvoltage wrote: post #37

glangdale wrote: post #17

> Schools are being pressured to remove books and cancel professors for spreading the “wrong” ideas. These sentiments are all too familiar to me, and to anyone who has survived life in a dictatorship. The only answer is more freedom, more speech, not less. This is a good sentiment, but it's worth noting that the overwhelming majority of pressure to "cancel" books and academics is directed at the left by the right, re…

You may be right about one instance, but I've never seen anything but pro-freedom of speech from the right. Leftism in colleges and academia is so rotten beyond belief. I am down with History of Racism, naked and in all its gory details. But, let's not confuse that with how fusion of Big Tech with Big Gov to move more and more towards totalitarianism - we've seen this happen in Australia in the name of COVID. Vast ma…

> Generally speaking, it is indisputedly obvious to me.

When I catch myself saying things like this, I contemplate whether the availability heuristic is deceiving me. It might not be -- I haven't done a rigorous review of this topic either -- but I usually find it's worth introspection when I have this thought.

Re: Chess Grandmaster Kasparov on Mob Mentality and Groupthink

#87

Post by GoodbyeMrChips » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 9:01 PM UTC

dlp211 wrote: post #36

thoughtstheseus wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “left” cancels everywhere. The “right” cancels in their own community. Big difference IMO. Pros and cons to both of those approaches but that’s how I see it.

People choosing to no longer listen to you because you have ideas that are currently considered reprehensible to the larger society is not being cancelled. That's called consequences for my actions. You are not entitled to consequence free speech & actions. This has never been a principle of free speech. Also, there is a massive difference between using government entities to ban books, and a bunch of people on Twitt…

Ummmm

Our UK students unions are repeatedly preventing people speaking on campuses because they object to their views [1]. This IS 'cancel culture' and it is not healthy for our democracy.

Whatever happend to "I disprove of what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it" ?

[1] https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/how-is-cancel-culture-aff...

Re: Chess Grandmaster Kasparov on Mob Mentality and Groupthink

#88

Post by ritchiea » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 9:03 PM UTC

fishtoaster wrote: post #13

If you want to hear more of his view, including some solid rebuttals, I highly recommend IntelligenceSquared, a debate series that gets published as a podcast. They cover motions from culture to science to politics across the spectrum and usually get excellent, well-informed debaters on both sides. Their most recent one was "Cancel Culture is Toxic"[0] and Kasparov was arguing in favor of the motion. While I ultimate…

Tangential but it’s always amusing to me to see Kasparov mentioned as a “chess grandmaster” when there are over 1000 grandmasters while Kasparov was the longest reigning world champion & widely considered the best ever. It’s like having Zuckerberg on your panel and making his title “Entrepreneur”.

Re: Chess Grandmaster Kasparov on Mob Mentality and Groupthink

#89

Post by stefan_ » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 9:03 PM UTC

Dma54rhs wrote: post #6

jdkee wrote: post #3

Didn't he just promote an NFT earlier today?

What does it have to do with the subject even if he did? He is not writing about nft's?

Yes, why be suspicious of someone willing to put his name and picture on every blockchain scam out there like some Instagram influencer?

He is also of course the "Avast security ambassador" and tours the world visiting the kinds of conferences where not very important people meet other not very important people telling each other they are very important, like the "WebSummit" or "TechCrunch Disrupt".

Re: Chess Grandmaster Kasparov on Mob Mentality and Groupthink

#90

Post by blub » Thu, Nov 18, 2021, 9:05 PM UTC

emn13 wrote: post #62

blub wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t know about most pressure, but when it comes to succeeding at cancelling, conservatives don’t seem to be able to cancel anything. What or who was cancelled by conservatives in the past let’s say 2-3 years?

The idea that cancel culture isn't effective isn't limited to cancel culture by conservatives; many of the cancellations decried by conservatives seem ineffective too. Still, I wouldn't have wanted to be the person on the receiving end, and there have been a bunch nasty campaigns - including by conservatives. But if cancel culture is synonymous with effective public harassment, then virtually every single non-trumpis…

Having read three of the links you posted, it looks like they’re approaching this purely from a US Republican vs. Democrat perspective. But this same phenomenon is definitely happening in the UK, France or Germany and likely other countries. It’s happening in Canada.

In fact that’s what makes it so concerning, this illiberal way of thinking is spreading in most if not all liberal democracies.