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Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

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Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#191

Post by marginalia_nu »

lvass wrote: post #184
marginalia_nu wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, let's agree that the proposition we are discussing is this: * Freedom is the limitation of choice. My counter-argument is this: Limitations on choice through potential consequences are ultimately self-imposed. To have any effect, they require me to refuse to consider the possibility of the alternative. To the extent they limit my action, it is through my choice, possibly implicit, to let them limit my actions. Th…

>* Freedom is the limitation of choice Assuming you meant the literal opposite, I can agree there's a bit of nuance but it's true in the "spirit of the law" sense. I really don't understand why you're still trying to take it so literally. >This type of contradiction usually means a definition is incomplete Words aren't perfect nor immutable, no definition is complete, but it's relatively easy to see what it's trying…

If we are to investigate whether freedom is desirable, don't we owe it to ourselves to find out what freedom is first, find out if we are free, if we even can be free? Otherwise we can debate in circles about different meanings of the word and ultimately get nowhere.

I don't think the poetic appeal of the definition is useful if the definition itself lends itself to contradictions.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#192

Post by thegrimmest »

kag0 wrote: post #189
thegrimmest wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It somewhat boils down to violence, doesn't it? 1) Your degree of freedom is strictly a relationship between you and those who are able to legitimately use violence against you. Legitimate here meaning you have no means of recourse besides violence of your own. 2) How free you are is then expressed as a graph of all possible actions you may take which are not prohibited by the threat of legitimate violence (often exp…

That's an interesting way to look at it, but I take an issue here > How free you are is then expressed as a graph of all possible actions you may take which are not prohibited by the threat of legitimate violence It's a good point to think in terms of possible actions you may take. But violence isn't the only thing that can prune that graph. Say I come across an orchard surrounded by an [unclimbable] fence. I want to…

That's exactly my point though. The only pruning of the graph which counts against your freedom is that which is done with the threat of legitimate violence. You are still free in spite of the fact that you cannot access said orchard. It's simply beyond your capabilities, much like you are still free despite lacking wings to fly over the barrier.

Who erected the barrier is not relevant here. What if the barrier was a circumstance of nature? An orchard on a plateau surrounded by unclimbable cliffs?

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#193

Post by yosito »

goodpoint wrote: post #171
yosito wrote: post #149

The phrase that stands out to me in this is "the riot of human diversity". It's a great phrase. Probably worthy of a book or even a manifesto. I'm a multicultural person. Dual US/EU citizen. I've spent years living in each of the US, South America, the Caribbean and Europe. Since the mid-2010s, I've been acutely aware of different societal pressures to conform, and I've been "cancelled" by various groups of aquainten…

> do no harm. Beyond that, there is room for tolerance and disagreement. This is just a nice-sounding platitude. What is or isn't harmful is not written in stone. On the contrary, is a hugely polarizing topic that informs the legal system. People get to live or die because of views and opinions.

> People get to live or die because of views and opinions.

I disagree that my (largely uninformed) opinions really carry that much weight. If I were a doctor and patients were asking my medical opinion, then it would be extremely immoral to give them a harmful opinion. My opinioms about which politician said something racist or taboo are likely inconsequential. And of course if I did find that my opinion were having harmful consequences, I would change it, because I'm a moral person.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#194

Post by Kye »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #190
yosito wrote: post #149

The phrase that stands out to me in this is "the riot of human diversity". It's a great phrase. Probably worthy of a book or even a manifesto. I'm a multicultural person. Dual US/EU citizen. I've spent years living in each of the US, South America, the Caribbean and Europe. Since the mid-2010s, I've been acutely aware of different societal pressures to conform, and I've been "cancelled" by various groups of aquainten…

> and I've been "cancelled" by various groups of aquaintences over having opinions or failing to have opinions that the group demanded. Lost a job? Lost housing? Lost income? Were you "cancelled" or did various groups of acquaintances simply decide they didn't enjoy your company and that feeling led to a gradual (or maybe not so gradual) falling away of contact and interaction? I'm not for one moment suggesting that…

Some people's idea of free speech is really about their freedom to punch down, and they suddenly become very anti-free speech when criticized. Then they double down, and people set boundaries, and they complain about those boundaries...

Much of the noise about cancel culture looks a lot like DARVO.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#195

Post by yosito »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #190
yosito wrote: post #149

The phrase that stands out to me in this is "the riot of human diversity". It's a great phrase. Probably worthy of a book or even a manifesto. I'm a multicultural person. Dual US/EU citizen. I've spent years living in each of the US, South America, the Caribbean and Europe. Since the mid-2010s, I've been acutely aware of different societal pressures to conform, and I've been "cancelled" by various groups of aquainten…

> and I've been "cancelled" by various groups of aquaintences over having opinions or failing to have opinions that the group demanded. Lost a job? Lost housing? Lost income? Were you "cancelled" or did various groups of acquaintances simply decide they didn't enjoy your company and that feeling led to a gradual (or maybe not so gradual) falling away of contact and interaction? I'm not for one moment suggesting that…

> I don't want to hang out much with people who see the world very differently from me

That sounds like a perfect way to become a closed-minded bigot, using the original definition of the word.

I have friends and family that see the world quite differently than me. And I still take time to visit them, listen to them, and care for them.

When I was cancelled, I was actively attacked, sometimes literally having my life threatened, lost some jobs and memberships in different organizations. Mostly for failing to be offended by things the group told me I was required to be offended by.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#197

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

yosito wrote: post #195
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and I've been "cancelled" by various groups of aquaintences over having opinions or failing to have opinions that the group demanded. Lost a job? Lost housing? Lost income? Were you "cancelled" or did various groups of acquaintances simply decide they didn't enjoy your company and that feeling led to a gradual (or maybe not so gradual) falling away of contact and interaction? I'm not for one moment suggesting that…

> I don't want to hang out much with people who see the world very differently from me That sounds like a perfect way to become a closed-minded bigot, using the original definition of the word. I have friends and family that see the world quite differently than me. And I still take time to visit them, listen to them, and care for them. When I was cancelled, I was actively attacked, sometimes literally having my life…

> That sounds like a perfect way to become a closed-minded bigot, using the original definition of the word.

What I choose to read or watch is really completely orthogonal with who I choose to spend time with. I enjoy spending a significant amount of time investigating contrary points of view, and find it very valuable.

That does not mean I wish to spend the time I spend with others hanging out with people who actively hold contrary positions particularly if we do not agree on the terms of discussion. I can be respectful of those people [0], and listen to them, without making the choice to spend (optional) time with them.

If your cancelling really involved those things, then I am sorry that you had to experience this, and am glad that you've found some peace in the aftermath. An awful lot of what is called "cancelling" at the present time does not amount to the things you've described.

[0] EDIT: actually, this is dishonest. If someone does not agree with the same terms of discussion, I find it very hard to actually respect them, even if I can "be respectful" in person.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#198

Post by yosito »

photochemsyn wrote: post #139

Excellent article. For years I've suspected that when American 'leaders' look at the kind of power the Chinese government (or the Saudi government) has over its people, their main emotion is not revulsion but rather envy, and this seems rather bipartisan in nature, and is a sentiment found not just in the political sphere but also the corporate sphere. It's the complete intertwinement of the corporate and political s…

> The Chinese model seems to be 'we will ensure you have access to food and water and energy and in exchange your total loyalty to the state is required'

Judging based on the most recent incidence of mass starvation, which model do you think worked better? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#199

Post by ttfkam »

0xdeadb00f wrote: post #55
ttfkam wrote: post #41

You do not extend tolerance to those who would deny your humanity. Want to know how to fight back against authoritarianism? Look to the folks who've been fighting against racism for (literally) hundreds of years. Racism in the US is just fascism that hasn't hit white people yet.

That's a pretty interesting and thought provoking point. Well said!

Lol! "Flagged"

Not because it was off topic since I was responding to a point Snowden made.

Not because it was threatening anyone or even name-calling.

Not because it was inciting violence.

On a site that touts championing free speech as a paramount ideal, a topic about freedom of thought, and an open disdain for "groupthink", my comment was flagged.

I swear, this orange site has absolutely no sense of irony.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#200

Post by jaywalk »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #197
yosito wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't want to hang out much with people who see the world very differently from me That sounds like a perfect way to become a closed-minded bigot, using the original definition of the word. I have friends and family that see the world quite differently than me. And I still take time to visit them, listen to them, and care for them. When I was cancelled, I was actively attacked, sometimes literally having my life…

> That sounds like a perfect way to become a closed-minded bigot, using the original definition of the word. What I choose to read or watch is really completely orthogonal with who I choose to spend time with. I enjoy spending a significant amount of time investigating contrary points of view, and find it very valuable. That does not mean I wish to spend the time I spend with others hanging out with people who active…

If you can't even respect someone who sees the world differently, how can you do any real "investigation" of actual contrary views? It's sad to me that you don't even see a problem with this, because this is exactly why things are they way they are today.
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