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The genius of John von Neumann

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Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#21

Post by hirundo »

"It’s fashionable to say that intelligence isn’t real, or that we can’t define it, or that it’s a Western colonial construct. But the word points to a real thing: there is some quality which rocks don’t have, and which mice have a bit of, and which chimpanzees have more of, and humans have a lot of; and which is something like problem-solving ability or ability to achieve goals."

We have IQ for measuring problem-solving ability, but it doesn't correlate well with the ability to achieve goals. That would be another very useful measure though, of something like intelligence * grit. Call it IGQ. An IGQ test would somehow set goals in a realistic, complex, chaotic environment, with social and physical as well as intellectual obstacles. So, a GPA is a sort of IGQ.

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#23

Post by tubby12345 »

systemvoltage wrote: post #15
photochemsyn wrote: post #5

You could write another article entitled 'the lunacy of John von Neumann' over his endless pushes for destroying every major city in the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons, too. A brilliant scientist, yes, but also an unhinged lunatic. Not an unusual situation, see Cantor etc. What's curious is how many hagiographies have been written about this individual - some people seem bent on rehabilitating this figure by erasi…

I hate this. We are trying to look at the worst of someone that did so much for the world. People on HN are trying to cancel Feynman as well. I have nothing but feelings of disdain for you. Even if they did something wrong, I’d rather focus on their positive sides. Please stop this onslaught of taking down the history for some axe to grind.

Maybe some people are tired of sycophantic hero worship (in science and elsewhere).

>We are trying to look at the worst of someone that did so much for the world.

Have you ever considered that maybe hagiography is a disservice to these people? I know that if I were to do something extraordinary, I would be ashamed if other people used it as a smokescreen for my shortcomings.

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#24

Post by beaconstudios »

DantesKite wrote: post #19
photochemsyn wrote: post #5

You could write another article entitled 'the lunacy of John von Neumann' over his endless pushes for destroying every major city in the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons, too. A brilliant scientist, yes, but also an unhinged lunatic. Not an unusual situation, see Cantor etc. What's curious is how many hagiographies have been written about this individual - some people seem bent on rehabilitating this figure by erasi…

An intellectual-yet-idiot who placed too much hope and emphasis on game theory, despite the fact that it only works when agents are perfectly rational.

John Von Neumann: the first redditor

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#25

Post by DantesKite »

sugarpile wrote: post #8
photochemsyn wrote: post #5

You could write another article entitled 'the lunacy of John von Neumann' over his endless pushes for destroying every major city in the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons, too. A brilliant scientist, yes, but also an unhinged lunatic. Not an unusual situation, see Cantor etc. What's curious is how many hagiographies have been written about this individual - some people seem bent on rehabilitating this figure by erasi…

I fail to see how pushing for a strategy that, from a game theory point of view, was sound makes him a lunatic. Plenty of people don't view the preservation of life as the be all end all and if that strategy had been followed and it had led to a world where only the United States had ever been allowed to develop nuclear weapons I see a very easy argument for it being the more long-term humane option. Edit: who's more…

There's a great analytical paper explaining why game theory fails: It's because humans aren't perfectly rational agents.

https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4336/5/1/53/htm

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#26

Post by beaconstudios »

systemvoltage wrote: post #15
photochemsyn wrote: post #5

You could write another article entitled 'the lunacy of John von Neumann' over his endless pushes for destroying every major city in the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons, too. A brilliant scientist, yes, but also an unhinged lunatic. Not an unusual situation, see Cantor etc. What's curious is how many hagiographies have been written about this individual - some people seem bent on rehabilitating this figure by erasi…

I hate this. We are trying to look at the worst of someone that did so much for the world. People on HN are trying to cancel Feynman as well. I have nothing but feelings of disdain for you. Even if they did something wrong, I’d rather focus on their positive sides. Please stop this onslaught of taking down the history for some axe to grind.

trying to get a balanced perspective on people who did a lot for the world is not cancel culture. Winston Churchill saved Britain from the Nazis, but he was also pretty racist. That doesn't reduce the meaning of his positive accomplishments, but it does give his character more dimensionality.

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#27

Post by dandanua »

photochemsyn wrote: post #5

You could write another article entitled 'the lunacy of John von Neumann' over his endless pushes for destroying every major city in the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons, too. A brilliant scientist, yes, but also an unhinged lunatic. Not an unusual situation, see Cantor etc. What's curious is how many hagiographies have been written about this individual - some people seem bent on rehabilitating this figure by erasi…

> hero-worship of scientists is very silly

About what they should think when developing a weapon of ultimate mass destruction? Rainbow unicorns?

You can't be a pacifist and simultaneously fight for "peace", that's nonsense. You can only fight for your survival, and for your people, your culture, your principles and values.

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#28

Post by DSingularity »

leesec wrote: post #6
photochemsyn wrote: post #5

You could write another article entitled 'the lunacy of John von Neumann' over his endless pushes for destroying every major city in the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons, too. A brilliant scientist, yes, but also an unhinged lunatic. Not an unusual situation, see Cantor etc. What's curious is how many hagiographies have been written about this individual - some people seem bent on rehabilitating this figure by erasi…

A man who didn't want a perceived enemy to get nuclear capabilities. Wow, what a lunatic.

And willing to kill tens of millions of innocents to achieve this. Yeah man a lunatic who in his detachment from the common man became less than in some of the most important dimensions of all: empathy, humanity.

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#29

Post by GDC7 »

leesec wrote: post #6
photochemsyn wrote: post #5

You could write another article entitled 'the lunacy of John von Neumann' over his endless pushes for destroying every major city in the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons, too. A brilliant scientist, yes, but also an unhinged lunatic. Not an unusual situation, see Cantor etc. What's curious is how many hagiographies have been written about this individual - some people seem bent on rehabilitating this figure by erasi…

A man who didn't want a perceived enemy to get nuclear capabilities. Wow, what a lunatic.

Every potential enemy is also a potential friend or a potential neutral. By definition.

Besides you don't get to wipe 1B people off the planet (which way back then represented 35% of the global population), and have as only consequence the fact that you "won" the prisoner's dilemma.

Such "victories" emerge as such after centuries when scientists would be studying the DNA remains and see who survived and who perished. But such great filter doesn't produce anything good for those living through it. Even the "winners"

There was no quality of life to be gained by the US and USSR in nuking each other, still there isn't today between US and Russia.Russia and the US can only be baited into nuking each other. And that's the danger we must be really careful about.

Thank god "normal" people like JFK and Kruschev who enjoyed the pleasures of life like cigars, alcohol and women were at the helm and not some guy who was paranoid about "winning" a game.

As far as predictive capabilities on this matter...Tom Clancy > John Von Neumann

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#30

Post by da39a3ee »

photochemsyn wrote: post #5

You could write another article entitled 'the lunacy of John von Neumann' over his endless pushes for destroying every major city in the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons, too. A brilliant scientist, yes, but also an unhinged lunatic. Not an unusual situation, see Cantor etc. What's curious is how many hagiographies have been written about this individual - some people seem bent on rehabilitating this figure by erasi…

He's much more than a brilliant scientist! Some people think he's the greatest mathematicians of the 20th Century, in addition to his seminal applied contributions to game theory, computing, economics etc.

So it's not about "rehabilitating" or "hagiography". The discussion isn't about his political views or his personality or any of that. This person is an, perhaps the, outstanding genius of human history.

In mathematics and theoretical science, the major breakthroughs have often been the work of one person. I'm sure you know this. In general your comment is going wrong by discussing Von Neumann as if he were an applied scientist: he was a theoretician.

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