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Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

edwardsnowden.substack.com

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Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#141

Post by defaultprimate »

beaconstudios wrote: post #137
defaultprimate wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hitler was elected based on the premise that he would save the German people from destruction, the exact justification you excuse, not simply because he hated Jews.

and making it illegal for parties to call for genocide would've helped his campaign, how? It doesn't necessarily harm his campaign as he could/did just dogwhistle instead, but it certainly wouldn't help it. FWIW Hitler wasn't the example I was thinking of when using that example. He didn't AFAIK explicitly call for genocide but he did dehumanise Jewish people with propaganda.

Uh it would have been a good legal basis to seize property from and criminalize the Jews since it was "easy to prove" that's what they were doing.

You know... Exactly what actually happened.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#142

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

> A close review of Snowden's official employment records and submissions reveals a pattern of intentional lying. He claimed to have left Army basic training because of broken legs when in fact he washed out because of shin splints. He claimed to have obtained a high school degree equivalent when in fact he never did. He claimed to have worked for the CIA as a "senior advisor," which was a gross exaggeration of his entry-level duties as a computer technician. He also doctored his performance evaluations and obtained new positions at NSA by exaggerating his resume and stealing the answers to an employment test. In May 2013, Snowden informed his supervisor that he would be out of the office to receive treatment for worsening epilepsy. In reality, he was on his way to Hong Kong with stolen secrets.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#143

Post by tremon »

NikolaeVarius wrote: post #69
ttfkam wrote: post #41

You do not extend tolerance to those who would deny your humanity. Want to know how to fight back against authoritarianism? Look to the folks who've been fighting against racism for (literally) hundreds of years. Racism in the US is just fascism that hasn't hit white people yet.

"You do not extend tolerance to those who would deny your humanity." And this is how fascism starts

I would argue that fascism already started with those who would deny others humanity, regardless of whether they're shown tolerance.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#144

Post by photochemsyn »

evancoop wrote: post #67

Perhaps there is some definition of freedom in mathematical terms in which the total scope of decision-making autonomy is maximized over all citizens? The barbarian example would yield a low tally, as the leaders of a hoard are "free," but their subordinates have little decision-making capacity. In terms of the limitations of personal freedoms, the boundary might lie where the diminishment of others' freedoms exceeds…

We could examine this by comparing 'anti-freedom' systems like chattel slavery (Old US South Cotton Plantations) vs. wage slavery (Appalachian Coal Company Towns).

In the former, refusal to work for the masters led to beatings, torture, mutilitaion and death. In the later, refusal to work for the bosses led to homelessness and hunger and death.

Now, one could argue that the coal company town was 'more free' than the cotton plantation, I suppose.

Ultimately freedom requires the dismantling and weakening of hierarchical social power structures. Let's say the people in that coal company town were the ones who elected their bosses, rather than some remote collection of wealthy shareholders.

Wouldn't that be even more free? Democratization of corporations seems like going in the direction of freedom. Germany is ahead in this, as corporate boards in Germany include employee representatives, not just shareholder representatives.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#145

Post by beaconstudios »

defaultprimate wrote: post #141
beaconstudios wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and making it illegal for parties to call for genocide would've helped his campaign, how? It doesn't necessarily harm his campaign as he could/did just dogwhistle instead, but it certainly wouldn't help it. FWIW Hitler wasn't the example I was thinking of when using that example. He didn't AFAIK explicitly call for genocide but he did dehumanise Jewish people with propaganda.

Uh it would have been a good legal basis to seize property from and criminalize the Jews since it was "easy to prove" that's what they were doing. You know... Exactly what actually happened.

> making it illegal for parties to call for genocide would've helped his campaign, how?

I don't know if you're arguing in bad faith or just not responding to what I'm writing, but this is pretty clearly a waste of time.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#146

Post by sysadm1n »

debacle wrote: post #115

No one is ever truly free. Maybe great, great ascetics who are so detached from the world that their freedom has become a prison of their own. When I was young, I felt every bite at my freedom deeply. Having a job, a schedule, responsibilities. Each one was deleterious to my freedom in a way that, as a young man, I was unequipped to handle. I've learned at some point in the last few years that we trade in our freedom…

> No one is ever truly free

Freedom exists in the mind. Even the most oppressed enslaved people can still be free in their own head.

On the other hand, I use some proprietary non-free software, so I've traded my freedom to use certain technology, but other than that, I consider myself as always being free no matter what the circumstances. All the old sages have said something similar: 'You are enslaved the moment you think you are'

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#147

Post by cochne »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #142

> A close review of Snowden's official employment records and submissions reveals a pattern of intentional lying. He claimed to have left Army basic training because of broken legs when in fact he washed out because of shin splints. He claimed to have obtained a high school degree equivalent when in fact he never did. He claimed to have worked for the CIA as a "senior advisor," which was a gross exaggeration of his e…

What does any of that matter?

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#149

Post by yosito »

The phrase that stands out to me in this is "the riot of human diversity". It's a great phrase. Probably worthy of a book or even a manifesto.

I'm a multicultural person. Dual US/EU citizen. I've spent years living in each of the US, South America, the Caribbean and Europe.

Since the mid-2010s, I've been acutely aware of different societal pressures to conform, and I've been "cancelled" by various groups of aquaintences over having opinions or failing to have opinions that the group demanded. Thankfully, I've got a few loyal friends, and a strong sense of self that have allowed me to recover and thrive.

Through it all, one thing I've learned very well is that people in the world have very diverse views and opinions. It's a beautiful thing, and I will never make someone my enemy over their views. I have one moral standard to which I hold myself and others: do no harm. Beyond that, there is room for tolerance and disagreement.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#150

Post by ttfkam »

bluetomcat wrote: post #81
ttfkam wrote: post #41

You do not extend tolerance to those who would deny your humanity. Want to know how to fight back against authoritarianism? Look to the folks who've been fighting against racism for (literally) hundreds of years. Racism in the US is just fascism that hasn't hit white people yet.

> Racism in the US is just fascism that hasn't hit white people yet. It's rooted in classism and in a special breed of expressively-aggressive individualism. Self-identification and self-expression is paramount. You are forced to identify as a member of many different groups and outwardly express your thoughts and opinions.

There are Democrats elected to office that are publicly anti-abortion, pro-coal, etc.

Can you name any GOP who are pro-choice, anti-coal, etc. I mean, they're getting called out for saying the election was fair and that 1/6 was an insurrection rather than tourists.

There is definitely tribalism on all sides, but there is a marked cultish aspect to one faction, cult of personality batteries included.

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