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Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

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111–120 of 266 posts

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#111
post #79

> Under the influence of politically correct extremism, individual thought and expression are too often curbed Uh-huh. I can only assume this refers to the so-called "cancel-culture" which probably doesn't exist (I am not claiming that there aren't "cancellation" incidents, but for this to exist as a "culture" or a trend, it needs to be shown that fewer people today can express and publicly disseminate fewer opinions…

That assumes that second person necessarily takes away something from the first person by the nature of her existence. In reality, this is not the case. Two persons can cooperate and kill a mammoth together, so both now have more spare time - a measure of freedom. A tribe can capture more territory - a measure of freedom.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saving the Germans from genocide and exploitation by the Jews is exactly the justification Hitler used

except that Jewish Germans weren't calling for the genocide of Christian Germans. The premise was a lie, constructed to scapegoat the Jewish population for the Germans losing the Great War [1]. Banning people from calling for genocide doesn't apply to governments committing genocide to back up a lie. That's a pretty obvious distinction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stab-in-the-back_myth

You made my argument for me. When those in power use the justification above and the justification is not based on reality, it has disastrous consequences.

It's not a valid justification, and authoritarians don't care about objective reality or rationality.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#113
post #21

I can understand how it could be considered that in a very non-free society, but no. Freedom exists only as an equilibrium between your freedom and that of others, between paralyzing order and utter chaos.

> Freedom exists only as an equilibrium between your freedom and that of others, between paralyzing order and utter chaos What does this mean? As in your freedom to swing your fists ends at the tip of my nose? Or something else?

It's a common refrain here to setup a weird dichotomy between freedom and some other X. It's a thought anti pattern - a rootless piece of social knowledge that people were told at some point that never went examined. There are so many cases of freedom AND X, that it's easy to disprove.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you not like the question so you avoided it by asking one of your own instead, or is something I'm not familiar with going on?

An action has an undesirable consequence, does this mean it is impossible to perform? The question isn't whether we are free under all circumstances, but whether we are free now.

[deleted]

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#115
No one is ever truly free. Maybe great, great ascetics who are so detached from the world that their freedom has become a prison of their own.

When I was young, I felt every bite at my freedom deeply. Having a job, a schedule, responsibilities. Each one was deleterious to my freedom in a way that, as a young man, I was unequipped to handle.

I've learned at some point in the last few years that we trade in our freedoms every day of our lives. If you have a driver's license or pasteurized milk in your refrigerator, you have traded in some way in your freedom.

What I see today is a contingent of people who don't value their freedom at all. They have no spiritual relationship with their existence as an individual - their identity is predicated on their characteristics and not their innate uniqueness.

Down that road is every manner of tyranny.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#116
post #79

> Under the influence of politically correct extremism, individual thought and expression are too often curbed Uh-huh. I can only assume this refers to the so-called "cancel-culture" which probably doesn't exist (I am not claiming that there aren't "cancellation" incidents, but for this to exist as a "culture" or a trend, it needs to be shown that fewer people today can express and publicly disseminate fewer opinions…

> So whenever people speak of more freedom, the question is, more freedom for whom and at the expense of whom.

This only applies at the very boundary of freedom. I would argue we are not frequently at that boundary - often freedom is curtailed for reasons other than preserving the freedom of others.

A silly example: Suppose the government outlawed wearing red shirts. Regaining that freedom would not impede the freedom of others in any way.

A real life example: It is illegal for me to buy raw milk from my local farmer. Allowing two consenting adults to make a transaction would not affect anyone else's freedom.

You can view laws on a spectrum from "strictly exists to protect other's freedoms" on the left to "strictly exists to curtail individual freedom" on the right. I would argue that making raw milk illegal is a law on the far right side of that spectrum. It is up for debate where current political issues fall on that spectrum. Gun control advocates say that the existence of easy access to guns restricts their freedoms, and so put gun control laws on the left side of the spectrum. Gun rights advocates disagree, and put gun control on the right side of the spectrum.

Regardless, nobody would argue that all current laws are at the far left. If we wanted to maximize freedom as a society, we have some easy gains before we have to start worrying balancing the conflicting freedoms of others. The problem is that most people don't want to maximize freedom - they want just enough freedom to do what they want to do, but enough regulation to stop others from doing things they don't like.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#117
post #16

Freedom is the degree to which you are able to navigate the power process. The power process is the ability to identify and change something within a system. For example, if there is a vending machine with coke and you want pepsi. Is there a process that you can use to make that happen? If there is, then you have freedom. This of course extends to bigger things than soda. "Sovereign is he who makes the exception"

This equates power to freedom, where the degree of freedom correlates to the degree of power, and only the truly powerful are free. If that is your thesis, then you are in agreement with Snowden.

More power draws more responsibility so not necessarily. Yes, you have more freedoms as in choosing what to buy but material freedoms are only one branch in the many freedoms one can have. So I can agree with OP in that ability of one to manipulate power for freedom is a good definition of one's true potential for it. One can also give away certain powers or responsibilities for more freedom.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

except that Jewish Germans weren't calling for the genocide of Christian Germans. The premise was a lie, constructed to scapegoat the Jewish population for the Germans losing the Great War [1]. Banning people from calling for genocide doesn't apply to governments committing genocide to back up a lie. That's a pretty obvious distinction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stab-in-the-back_myth

You made my argument for me. When those in power use the justification above and the justification is not based on reality, it has disastrous consequences. It's not a valid justification, and authoritarians don't care about objective reality or rationality.

when authoritarians get into power they can do whatever the hell they want. That's why the point is to stop that happening in the first place. Hitler turned himself into a dictator pretty much immediately after (possibly staging) the Reichstag fire and declaring a state of emergency.

The whole point is to stop people like him getting in in the first place, and you don't do that by making calls to genocide viable.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chapelle is a "Right Winger?" Is he a "White Supremacist" too, yet? "Clayton Bigsby" was a dog whistle!

Regarding LGBT issues, Chapelle's ideology harmonizes well with the right.

And people called RMS a pedophile too; but it wasn't true either.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#120
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean when you say free?

Ability to make your own choices. The way I understand barbaric societies is that whatever your elders come up with you are obliged to follow their lead, if you object you will be banished or killed.

> you are obliged to follow their lead, if you object you will be banished or killed

Not really that different to today, except that it's a circle of elders and their lead is codified in laws.

But breaking these laws will still get you "banished" aka deported if you are not a citizen, and if you are citizen you will face consequences for your noncompliance, which in some places can still reach all the way up to the death sentence.

So in a way it's still all just barbaric societies, but with extra steps.

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