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Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

edwardsnowden.substack.com

101–110 of 266 posts

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#101

Perhaps there is some definition of freedom in mathematical terms in which the total scope of decision-making autonomy is maximized over all citizens? The barbarian example would yield a low tally, as the leaders of a hoard are "free," but their subordinates have little decision-making capacity. In terms of the limitations of personal freedoms, the boundary might lie where the diminishment of others' freedoms exceeds…

Looking from a dialectic perspective, the higher in the social hierarchy you are, the more freedom you have in some of your decisions and less in others. Decisions like where to live, what to wear, who to befriend etc., become more free and at the same time less yours. Taking it to the extreme, is a leader of an authoritarian state free to stop oppressing their people and install democracy? Is a leader of a democratic state free to start oppressing their people and install authoritarianism?

Perhaps the grand theorem of freedom would state that freedom in the Universe is constant.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#102
post #79

> Under the influence of politically correct extremism, individual thought and expression are too often curbed Uh-huh. I can only assume this refers to the so-called "cancel-culture" which probably doesn't exist (I am not claiming that there aren't "cancellation" incidents, but for this to exist as a "culture" or a trend, it needs to be shown that fewer people today can express and publicly disseminate fewer opinions…

> A person living alone in the world can be free, but two cannot.

This seems to say that the opposite of freedom is impact. That is, freedom is lost when one person impacts another. I feel restraint is a more effective antonym.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You do not extend tolerance to those who would deny your humanity." And this is how fascism starts

[flagged]

Saving the Germans from genocide and exploitation by the Jews is exactly the justification Hitler used

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#104
post #56

[flagged]

It used to be called boycotting but it, as a thought-stopping cliche, couldn't be assigned to only one party and wouldn't be as catchy so they had to make one up. Same with "political correctness" or "sjw". In the US if you said the wrong things, historically, that weren't politically correct, you'd be ostracized or if you were of the wrong class, race or religion, the social warriors at the time would want justice and seek to persecute you as you upset the order of what they saw as just. This has been going on all throughout history but if you assign them, these actions that you don't like and of a group you don't like, a new name and equate it with a certain political group, you can more effectively distinguish and dehumanize the other group as an out-group.

Personally, Horseshoe Theory makes sense. The extremes of both, as Snowden was implying with China and the US, are more like each other than not. Should any get their way and you're in the out-group, you're on a scale of fucked. Even the "peaceful" religions or ideologies are guilty of persecuting those in the outgroup in sometimes very heinous ways. Incidentally, it's strange, but not surprising, that he didn't mention Russia, his own host, where censorship is even worse than the US.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#105
post #79

> Under the influence of politically correct extremism, individual thought and expression are too often curbed Uh-huh. I can only assume this refers to the so-called "cancel-culture" which probably doesn't exist (I am not claiming that there aren't "cancellation" incidents, but for this to exist as a "culture" or a trend, it needs to be shown that fewer people today can express and publicly disseminate fewer opinions…

> A person living alone in the world can be free, but two cannot. Either they have the freedom to curtail the other's freedom, or they do not.

I mean, even a person living alone in the world would lack the "freedom to curtail another's freedom" in that sense. Furthermore, he would still be bound to the laws of physics, for example, and would never achieve your definition of freedom. I think the freedom the author is discussing is something deeper than "capability to do x", more like the specific liberty of being heterogenous to the culture you live in (hence his lionizing of tolerance).

I think you're absolutely right that there is a scarcity of this freedom that is precipitated by a scarcity of resources, as in your example. I think history has proven that it's not a zero-sum game, however, and that certain cultures have managed to produce a higher degree of this "freedom" than others. A culture that values and protects open scientific inquiry, for example, would perhaps discover advancements that reduced the aforementioned scarcity of resources which should have the effect of increasing the freedom that was previously diminished.

Perhaps why freedom should not be regarded as a goal is because, as you have pointed out, it cannot be absolutely attained, neither by an individual or much less a plurality of them. To instead orient a culture in the direction of increased freedom seems more achievable and fruitful.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#106
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So... is Snowden on the right or left? Think carefully before you answer. If he's on the left, why are you responding negatively to his concern for cancel culture by attacking the right? If he's on the right, then perhaps there is more cancelling on the right than you want to admit?

> So... is Snowden on the right or left? Why is it so important that he identified by one of those?

It isn't to you or me, but some people only have two boxes to put people in.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Saving the Germans from genocide and exploitation by the Jews is exactly the justification Hitler used

except that Jewish Germans weren't calling for the genocide of Christian Germans. The premise was a lie, constructed to scapegoat the Jewish population for the Germans losing the Great War [1].

Banning people from calling for genocide doesn't apply to governments committing genocide to back up a lie. That's a pretty obvious distinction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stab-in-the-back_myth

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#108
post #68

> building out a similar technological and political infrastructure, using similar the justifications of countering terrorism, misinformation, sedition, and subjective “social harms.” FWIW, this seems to be a common thread in many countries apart from China and the US. “Sedition”, for example, has become the stick to use for any kind of dissent uttered in India over the last few years (a lot more so compared to befor…

I'd suggest that rather than losing faith in democracy you could look to the spectrum of democracies and see where India's is failing. In the UK we have to turn to the courts to restrain the horrors that our government commit, more and more of late.

"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time; but there is the broad feeling in our country that the people should rule, continuously rule, and that public opinion, expressed by all constitutional means, should shape, guide, and control the actions of Ministers who are their servants and not their masters." - Winston Churchill, 1947

[https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1947/nov/...]

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#109
freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin

i didn't read the article because i'm free to not have to ;) I know it's shallow but, to me, freedom is a road trip. Being able to drive across the country without having to get permits or passports or anything, just being able to move about is freedom to me.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#110
post #41

You do not extend tolerance to those who would deny your humanity. Want to know how to fight back against authoritarianism? Look to the folks who've been fighting against racism for (literally) hundreds of years. Racism in the US is just fascism that hasn't hit white people yet.

> You do not extend tolerance to those who would deny your humanity. Probably a bad ethos to harbour, one that I imagine quickly rationalizes violent behavior. And I think we're all fortunate that in the US there is no prevailing force denying any specific race of their humanity. Is there scar tissue from the past? Certainly. As Snowden states "freedom is a direction" and we've certainly moved in the right direction…

Imagine you were a Black woman born in late 1865. You were among the first never to have known slavery. You witnessed the first Black folks elected to Congress and even considered it normal.

Then Reconstruction ends with a whimper. Burning crosses are showing up everywhere. Thousands flee north as a reign of terror grows. Your voting rights are curtailed then eliminated. When Black folks are elected, they are driven out of office by gunfire, and the federal government does nothing. You were never eligible for the same jobs as white folks, but now you can't even drink from the same fountains.

Would you say that woman lives in a democracy/democratic republic or a fascist hellscape?

Then some legislation is passed. The folks wrongly accused remain in jail, the dead remain dead, and the ones who killed them are never brought to justice. The change is considered an injustice by many, who leave their political party in droves and welcomed by the other party in a "Southern Strategy."

Things seems to quiet down a little though representation in media either wholely excludes her descendants or disproportionately shows them on shows like "Cops". The history of that legislation is watered down and most of the details of what happened before are not taught in schools. Some public schools even have teachers arguing the authoritarianism was justifiable. See: Lost Cause.

Then a man with her skin color is elected president. Those same people who claimed that the presidency must hold certain moral and capability requirements are confronted with a man with all required qualifications and then some.

After his largely scandal-free tenure, those same folks, many of whom were alive and among those forced by the National Guard to treat people with his skin color as a human being, gave up all pretense to morality and competence in the presidency to elect a man who had neither.

And then we he lost re-election, they attempted to storm the Capital and kill those that would replace him. This was not quiet either. Folks brought lumber and BUILT a gallows where they chanted for the Vice President to be hung for his lack of loyalty to the outgoing president.

Did I mention the man with a knee on his neck for the better part of ten minutes, whose murderers would have gotten away with it had it not been for uncut civilian video footage of the event from multiple angles?

Or the woman shot in her bed with no one held to account for her death?

Or the literally dozens of instances off the top of my head where a police officer kills or maims someone ON VIDEO with only a slap on the wrist if that?

How about elected officials publicly stating that homosexuality or being trans should be a capital crime?

Or legislation popping up around the country that bodily autonomy is a fundamental right in law unless you are female between approximately the ages of 12 and 50.

I'll restate: racism and sexism and homophobia are all examples of fascism that haven't hit wealthy white men yet.

And unfortunately poor white men and white women in general have failed to recognize the difference between power and proximity to power. To everyone's detriment.

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