Live data from Hacker News

Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

edwardsnowden.substack.com

41–50 of 266 posts

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#41
You do not extend tolerance to those who would deny your humanity.

Want to know how to fight back against authoritarianism? Look to the folks who've been fighting against racism for (literally) hundreds of years.

Racism in the US is just fascism that hasn't hit white people yet.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#42

Freedom is the default for existence. The only way to not have freedom is for others to remove it from you by force or threat of it. The threat of it is what causes us to self limit our own freedoms. (sometimes for a greater good, sometimes not)

“Freedom” can be given up by choice, too. Often because the trade-off is better for both. Marriage, for example.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#43
post #25

"Freedom" is a symbol. Like all symbols and all symbolism it means nothing to Bob and everything to Bill. It means one things to Sarah and another to Sally. One person's freedom is another's tyranny and vice versa. It's all a treacherous language game.

Freedom means different things to different people, but it's not because it's all a treacherous language game. It's because the concept is complex. The forces that underlie freedom like choice and power are not just treacherous language games. They also mean different things to different people, but they're very real at a base level.

If it were all a treacherous language game, then playing would be futile. There would be nothing to talk about.

To the contrary, Snowden is talking about Freedom from the context of a society that was a humanitarian, economic, and cultural disaster - Mao's China. Those failures were far from a language game.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#44
post #3

I can understand how it could be considered that in a very non-free society, but no. Freedom exists only as an equilibrium between your freedom and that of others, between paralyzing order and utter chaos.

I was thinking, I can currently go from NA to Europe today if I wanted to. But that level of technology and orchestration would not be possible in a lawless and barbaric society (at least I don't think so). This possibility offers me a lot of freedom (traveling around the world) and in exchange, I had to follow rules and work. I gave some freedom and got more in exchange. The same thing applies for many other things…

I'd argue that hunter gatherers had all of the units of freedoms, and when full centralization happened (monarchies) we lost all those units. Democracy gave you back some units by decentralizing power (not fully).

I'm not saying decentralizing more is gonna give you more freedom, more like a different take. I think your point is still valid, there has to be an equilibrium and I just don't know where it lays.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#45
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can still do that in any society. Even though it's illegal, you can run a red light or cheat on your taxes. The notion that you somehow can't is just mauvaise foi. Of course you can. You're choosing not to. Seems like you are describing freedom from consequences, not the ability to make choices, because that's available now and to the barbarian. I'm not sure which society has no consequences.

>You can still do that in any society. Even though it's illegal, you can run a red light or cheat on your taxes By that logic, there is no such thing as restriction of freedom, as it assumes even someone's ability to jail you does not restrict your freedom in any way. People in jail are free as a corollary. How is this not absurd? It only makes sense if you hate freedom and want to argue against it to people low on r…

Apparently you haven't read anything by Jean-Paul Sartre.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#46

Freedom is the default for existence. The only way to not have freedom is for others to remove it from you by force or threat of it. The threat of it is what causes us to self limit our own freedoms. (sometimes for a greater good, sometimes not)

That means nothing: I want to be free to copulate with any mate - what should you do when I approach yours? Well, this is this balance and how to reach it that is the difficulty: what you say has no substance and everyone agrees.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#47
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if you are arrested after making one of these illegal choices, are you still free?

If you plunge a sword into your chest, you also can't make choices later on. Does that mean it's impossible to choose to plunge a sword into your chest?

You are free to make a choice even when the end result is restricting future freedom (sword=death, illegal action=prison/death). So you can in any moment "be totally free" in virtually any society as long as concerns for freedom in future moments are irrelevant to you

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#48
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you plunge a sword into your chest, you also can't make choices later on. Does that mean it's impossible to choose to plunge a sword into your chest?

What did you smoke, my friend? I really like your search engine, don't destroy it's image for me. Freedom is not strictly equal to technical possibility, it's not even the same word.

Aww come on, I don't want you to agree with me, I want us to have an interesting discussion about what freedom is and ultimately why we want it. It's worth while, trust me.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you plunge a sword into your chest, you also can't make choices later on. Does that mean it's impossible to choose to plunge a sword into your chest?

Did you not like the question so you avoided it by asking one of your own instead, or is something I'm not familiar with going on?

An action has an undesirable consequence, does this mean it is impossible to perform?

The question isn't whether we are free under all circumstances, but whether we are free now.

Re: Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

#50
I like this point. To others, the statement is not a definition of freedom, but a guide on how to make decisions. If you think of freedom as a point, that needs to be achieved, defended, or maintained, you’ll act in opposition to other forces, and choose angles to defend around the past basis. If instead, freedom is a vector, your goal is positive, to expand it, to open new freedoms, and to ensure that as society moves forward freedom continues to grow and be maintained with it.
Post reply on HN