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Divorce does funny things

theparisreview.org

361–370 of 386 posts

Re: Divorce does funny things

#361
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a filter. Not meant to be 100% accurate. As long as it filters false positives fine, false negatives are casualties. We all have some filters in similar ways. I wouldn't want to work with a guy that shows violence to their family. I just don't want it. Simple as that.

Sure it's a filter, but I think the point is that the sensitivity / specificity of said filter might be below 50% for all you know. I doubt anyone in this thread has performed thorough analysis to try to determine either of those numbers.

I guess with the way ESGs are going, people seem to be paying attention to more than financials :)

This is some sort of an ESG

Re: Divorce does funny things

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women initiate divorce 70% of the time. For college educated women this rate is 90%.

That is an amazing statistic…

It's almost all upside for women. The financials are tilted entirely in their direction.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#363

I can say with great confidence - do not get married. Do not live in a common law state. You will very likely regret it immensely. If I had been legally married to my ex - I would’ve been raked over the coals. I could see myself being the man on that rig. She contributed nothing to our relationship (financially or emotionally) and I put her through college while she didn’t work or pay for anything. Yet, even if I sho…

Upvoted, unfortunately it happened to me. I out-earned my spouse by 4x and lost everything when she decided she wasn't happy. Do not expect any gratitude : You have no idea who your ex-wife until you meet her in family court. My ex wife took half of our (my) assets (including my 401k). The lawyers took what was left as I was fighting to prevent her from moving away 3'000 miles with our kids (I had to pay for both her…

I helped mine move to this country and find an occupation that was earning $130k and growing multiple digits% every year.

Then she must have heard about California divorces... Rather than staying in our unhappy marriage (arguably not anyone's particular fault) because she thought she had to, she filed, got half of everything, even stuff that was arguably more mine that hers.

I'd always been a marriage skeptic... When we moved to the US we got married, because that's how we could continue our relationship. I thought I was smart when I insisted to sign a pre-nup in our country of origin. I didn't suspect California would not see the pre-nup that way - Why would I be more careful then and research it in more details?: We were in love then. The news that the prenup would be contested was the first bitter news. (California doesn't yet have a case that went in front of a judge about that country's prenup validity).

When we settled, she cashed in, and immediately after, announced to me, that in fact, she was unhappy here, and that she was going back to our country of origin (2nd bitter news). I get to keep the kids (thank god) here with me. But she has long stopped working and I'll support her early retirement with monthly payments that are huge money where she is going. Why would she even work there? She has until the kids get 18 to figure the plan for after, and the assets she has from the settlement, if invested right, will cover even that (+ she has a new fiancee anyway).

Yes marriage is antiquated -- I had a "modern" marriage where I was super involved (cooking, taking care of the house and the kids), and a traditional "fuck you" divorce.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, felt I was dropped into a big-oil exposé and then it made a left turn and stopped.

That was exactly the feeling I had. I actually thought it was a very interesting article about the life of an oil rig worker. Suddenly, and in a throwaway fashion, we get a rumor about some unfortunate man and that's all. If this was meant to be an article about divorce, why wasn't there more divorce-related material? If this was supposed to be about oil rigs, why not focus on that and change the title? Very jarring…

You can see a note under the text noting that it's a book excerpt: https://bookshop.org/books/sea-state-a-memoir/9780063030831

Re: Divorce does funny things

#365
post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ~50% of married couple divorce That figure is outdated and I'd challenge what it represents. Here's more up to date info: >The most recent data we have from the 2019 American Community Survey puts the rate at 14.9 divorces per 1,000 marriages, the lowest number since 1970. [0] Further, the "50% of marriages end in divorce" is heavily skewed because it includes serial divorces/remarriages. If 5 couples marry for lif…

How come you don't count these 5 marriages this 1 person went through? You have 5 stable marriages + 5 marriages that ended up in divorce = 10 marriages in total So yes, 50% of marriages are 'unstable' in your example. If you count people affected, (and even assuming that these failed marriages were with a partner who was never married either before or after), then you have: 10 people in 'stable' marriages + 6 people…

That's a fair question and it depends on what you're trying to get out of the framing. It's similar to the "mean vs median" thing in averages. The absolute average divorce rate is 50%, but the typical marriage survives 85% of the time.

I often see "50% of marriages end in divorce" as an argument to not get married. Why get married if "until death due us part" is a coin-toss? That framing ignores that the overwhelming majority of first-time marriages are marriages for life.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not qualified to answer. I would tentatively say, decreasingly so. The issue, as I see it, is that although we have preventive measures and prophylactics and treatments (all imperfect), we do not yet have a culture of responsibility and building such a culture is hard. Theoretically we could compensate for the deficiencies of our medicine, through social responsibility. In reality this does not happen. The clear…

Thanks! I am not qualified enough to know a good answer either. Albeit I have alternative thoughts for some points you have made, you seem to know this better than I do.

I'd like to hear your points. I am curious of your viewpoint.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks! I am not qualified enough to know a good answer either. Albeit I have alternative thoughts for some points you have made, you seem to know this better than I do.

I'd like to hear your points. I am curious of your viewpoint.

To start with, I'll reiterate that I am not qualified enough here, and you seem to know more than me. :)

Since you asked still, below is my current understanding:

1. Biological evolution itself depends on spreading of genes. So the big picture cannot be an evolutionary path where having more than one partner is less optimal, whether for reasons of STD or otherwise*. Unless it is so bad that had we not picked up on monogamy, the homo sapiens population may have phased out altogether. Most species are continuing to live by nature, do not follow monogamy and are still thriving. May be we have increased our average lifespan by mitigating STD via monogamy practices, while the lifespan of animals continues at the baseline.

* I have read and noted in other comments here that emotional love between men and women lasts for about seven years. I suspect that nature purposely evolved us this way to keep the parents together when the children are very young, and once children are sufficiently grown up, the parents open themselves up to new partners.

2. In the modern times, we are more capable of solving such a challenge than we were in the ancient times. Surely, COVID challenged us, however, we have made it work out overall. (No disrespect intended for the people who have lost loved ones, suffered on health, finances, or otherwise.) If monogamy is to be taken out, more precautions would naturally come in to compensate for a negative impact of STD. We however did not have provisions for such precautions in the ancient times.

3. Likewise, while the progress for vaccines may be slow, that would not have been if we did not have the practice of monogamy. In other words, if we were to redesign things for today, we may have worked the optimal solution to be non-monogamy plus vaccines.

I have more thoughts to write.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your marriage could end at any point. You just live naively thinking it won’t Oh, I'm quite aware that it could end (whether due to death or divorce). I choose not to spend my time dwelling on the possibility, because that would be like living in hopelessness. There are a lot of bad things that might happen to us in the future, and some are even likely, but living in constant dread for the future is joylessness.

I'm not saying I live in fear of it either. I'm saying I don't care to participate in marriage because it is currently an institution that has not allowed itself to be modified to fit couples as they see fit. It is a one-size option and it - unfortunately - does not work for people like myself. If I was to marry - I'd have to marry someone with the same level of income, spending/saving habits, and so forth for the ma…

My situation has many similarities. I fully agree with your viewpoint.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try to trust me when I say this - when you’re looking at many years of not having to work and you don’t even have to foot the lawyer bill to make it happen… it’s not as difficult as you think. It’s not a picnic but it’s not purgatory either. If you were fortunate enough to marry a similarly earning woman then congratulations. Unfortunately - those are exceptional for this industry. At least where I am - it is rare to…

> Your marriage could end at any point. You just live naively thinking it won’t Oh, I'm quite aware that it could end (whether due to death or divorce). I choose not to spend my time dwelling on the possibility, because that would be like living in hopelessness. There are a lot of bad things that might happen to us in the future, and some are even likely, but living in constant dread for the future is joylessness.

Adding to what bradlys has written.

If we can fix the system, then no 'hopelessness' may anymore be involved. That's what we need to push for. As of now, the system for broken marriages is hopelessly bad.

My advice to all would be that even when in a good marriage, to the extent you can, don't make choices that would make the end of it hopeless for you.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to hear your points. I am curious of your viewpoint.

To start with, I'll reiterate that I am not qualified enough here, and you seem to know more than me. :) Since you asked still, below is my current understanding: 1. Biological evolution itself depends on spreading of genes. So the big picture cannot be an evolutionary path where having more than one partner is less optimal, whether for reasons of STD or otherwise*. Unless it is so bad that had we not picked up on mo…

I do agree with 1 and I believe the influence was subtle. I also believe it might have depended on a lot of factors. Maybe some tribes were not near any animal reservoir. Maybe some diseases were transmitted due to injuries while hunting or while butchering meat. And maybe in some cases, this lead to disadvantages during inter-tribe wars. Maybe a infected tribe lost a war, their men killed and the women raped, resulting in infection of the victorious tribe and once symptoms appeared, some spiritually inclined member of the tribe blamed it on punishment for the rapes. I think it's hard to say for sure what the influence was. Probably the meme of monogamy developed as a set of superstitions initially. I think STDs would have played a role in this early stage.

According to (1) at least 3 diseases originate form animal reservoir. Once the meme of Judaism and its fork Christianity (which merges Greek values - ancient Greece and Rome were monogamous) was on the scene it was almost certainly the greatest factor in spreading the meme of monogamy. I think by the time of antiquity, STDs were no longer the main factor in spreading the meme of monogamy. Wikipedia has a nice list of historic or current communities where polygamy was the norm.

I also find your speculation about the average duration of emotional love, plausible.

I wholeheartedly agree with 2 with the small note that theoretically we could have had it easier.

I am not sure I agree with 3. Overall medicine is a very recent development. I am not sure what are the circumstances that would have enabled us to develop science and medicine significantly earlier. Also, not sure if lack of monogamy would motivate research today but probably would to a statistically relevant degree. The relationship the public and the state have with scientific research is complicated and changes over time. There is certainly a claim that there is a link between the rise of dating apps and a rise of STDs. I do not know if there are actual studies to prove this. It may be just speculation and moral panic. Theoretically this uptick might lead to more funds being directed towards finding cures. Heteronormative monogamy definitely played a role in delaying research of treatments for HIV.

(1) “Two or three of the major STIs [in humans] have come from animals. We know, for example, that gonorrhoea came from cattle to humans. Syphilis also came to humans from cattle or sheep many centuries ago, possibly sexually”. The most recent and deadliest STI to have crossed the barrier separating humans and animals has been HIV, which humans got from the simian version of the virus in chimpanzees. https://www.understandinganimalresearch.org.uk/news/staff-bl...

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