Is it really that bad? HN is still an oasis of civil discourse in a desert of internet trolls.
I think it eventually becomes a question not of "is it better than the alternatives?" but "is it good enough for me to contribute my time?".
To my fellow Hacker News contributors
41–50 of 106 posts
Re: To my fellow Hacker News contributors
#42We are all going to nod our heads to this post, but as 'raganwald knows, nothing is going to change as a result. The inoculations against tribalism and tribal drama are cultural. Whatever vaccine HN had against this, it's worn off. My take is, flag these topics off the site. Cut them off like a gangrenous limb. We want to keep the leg, but even more, we want our heart to keep beating. But then, a vocal subset of HN u…
"We're not going to fix this problem. I'm also fine with that."
Just thinking out loud here in terms of potential ways to stem this although perhaps this is futile.
What if HN had a checkbox for ad-hominem and/or off-topic comments?
Check boxing a comment as an ad hominem would add to your "ad hominem" score (separate from karma). Likewise for off-topic. This wouldn't stop a person from posting ad hominem or off-topic comments, but the idea of accumulating points for bad behavior could dissuade (some) people from making too many. Who would want to be branded the off-topic or ad-hominem gal?
Perhaps it wouldn't work -- but at minimum I think it would be an interesting experiment in promoting civility and thoughtful discussion.
Re: To my fellow Hacker News contributors
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
What the downvotes probably indicate is that your argument is not well supported with detailed rationales and relevant examples. In other words, downvotes are a sign that your post could benefit from additional editing in the near term. Taking downvotes as either a failure to communicate your ideas, or as the price for saying what you feel you must is the healthiest approach. BTW, I didn't vote on it.
This isn't really the sort of thing that can be supported with relevant examples. It's just an idea. And I think it's an idea worth discussing -- what might happen to the discussion if moderation were removed completely? But I happen to disagree (for reasons stated elsewhere) and suspect that the folks who did downvote this also disagreed. And that's the other problem with invisible comment scores -- I think it's leg…
If it can't be supported with relevant examples or detailed rationales, then what is it contributing? And if it is not contributing, then isn't downvoting appropriate?
And a comment score debate is pulsu equus mortuus.
Re: To my fellow Hacker News contributors
#44This post has absolutely nothing to do with technology news.
It's entirely meta.
My head is exploding.
Re: To my fellow Hacker News contributors
#45I would love there to be varied flag options for comments. i.e. you click "Flag" and it spawns a dropdown with: "Off-topic" "Rude" "Ad Hominem" "Straw Man" If enough flaggers agree on the lack of value (and the reason for it), punt it AND ALL OF THE REPLIES.
Agree 100%. I'd add it should be a separate score too... No one would want to be a high scorer in these areas...
Re: To my fellow Hacker News contributors
#46Two problems with this post:
1-it severely exaggerates the personal attacks
2-it ignores the comments that led to the 'ad-hominem attacks'
The comment that started the 'attacks' was: "Steve Jobs touched people lives in a way no other can, sometimes at a very personal level". I find this comment completely ridiculous. I own an iphone and use a mac, I'm not an apple hater, but I do hate irrational fanboys. Comments that drip fanboyism and go well past rational discussion should be downvoted, not people posting responses. The responses were slightly aggressive, but they were responses to a terrible comment.
Re: To my fellow Hacker News contributors
#47We are all going to nod our heads to this post, but as 'raganwald knows, nothing is going to change as a result. The inoculations against tribalism and tribal drama are cultural. Whatever vaccine HN had against this, it's worn off. My take is, flag these topics off the site. Cut them off like a gangrenous limb. We want to keep the leg, but even more, we want our heart to keep beating. But then, a vocal subset of HN u…
"We're not going to fix this problem. I'm also fine with that." Just thinking out loud here in terms of potential ways to stem this although perhaps this is futile. What if HN had a checkbox for ad-hominem and/or off-topic comments? Check boxing a comment as an ad hominem would add to your "ad hominem" score (separate from karma). Likewise for off-topic. This wouldn't stop a person from posting ad hominem or off-topi…
Because we're a community of geeks, these threads always fill up with random technical countermeasures. I am dubious that any of them will work. I think showing other people's comment scores was a bug and I'm glad we fixed it†, but I don't think we need more features to address the cultural issues.
I do think we'd benefit from more guidance, but 'pg is pretty hands-off on this stuff. Graham could say today "no Apple vs. * debates", and about 100 people on HN would immediately start actively shutting down pointless Apple debates.
But he doesn't want to do that. I'm sure there's a reason for it. Part of it is probably that no matter what the ratio of light to heat, YC benefits from having HN active and perceived as open and unmoderated.
† Not interested in debating this; take it to 'pg
Re: To my fellow Hacker News contributors
#48We are all going to nod our heads to this post, but as 'raganwald knows, nothing is going to change as a result. The inoculations against tribalism and tribal drama are cultural. Whatever vaccine HN had against this, it's worn off. My take is, flag these topics off the site. Cut them off like a gangrenous limb. We want to keep the leg, but even more, we want our heart to keep beating. But then, a vocal subset of HN u…
It's funny that you write this b/c I hadn't read any of those threads myself. I have a filter where I don't often read the comments on stories from major media that make it to HN. There's rarely anything much to discuss and you're absolutely right that I do not care what anyone on HN thinks of Steve Jobs. As a side note, I'm happy about the removal of point visibility on comments... but I wonder if perhaps increased…
My first impression of the lack of displayed scores was that it was triggering slightly more short, redundant comments of agreement or disagreement, as people scratched an itch for public display of assent/dissent.
I suspect you're right that a change in tone and increase in the use of tribal-loyalty-signifiers might also be a side-effect of invisible scores. An upvote or downvote was only ever a coarse grunt or shake of the head, but in many social situations, there's a feeling one must send such signals to be 'present'.
Often when one outlet for a behavior is closed, the behavior flows elsewhere. Perhaps no visible point-effect means more signalling via tone and word choice: publicly upvoting via fanboyish tone, and publicly downvoting via snark.
It's a theory!
Re: To my fellow Hacker News contributors
#49Comment down/up votes have to go. People should be adult enough to be able read a post without someone telling them what's readworthy or not. Life is not a popularity contest where you tally how many points you've gotten for playing the game well. Members should, however, be able to flag comments that violate the guidelines so that the mods can deal with spam and other transgressions.
Yes, either scores or scrap voting. I don't think this middle way works at all.
Re: To my fellow Hacker News contributors
#50I downvote any comment containing the word "fanboy", and I encourage my fellow readers to do the same.