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Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

astralcodexten.substack.com

351–360 of 805 posts

Re: Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He has an earlier piece whose point is that the WHO can never be accurate, because they always have to prioritize "sounding trustworthy" over accuracy, and random blogs don't.

WHO has no other option than being inaccurate. Society needs a simple answer. Do this. Do that etc. Put on a mask. Wash your hands. Practice social distancing. Use approved vaccines. Take booster shots etc are pretty simple to follow. Likewise don't take non approved stuff. Easy to understand and simple to follow. Nuances will likely hurt and confuse the common man. That's why the news and celebs and politicians etc…

I think this is a false dichotomy, you can have both.

Re: Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The dissonance here is intense. On the one hand, "practicing MDs ... understand almost nothing when reading medical studies", but also I don't "know better than the average doc [just] because [I've] read 10 studies." Is the idea that doctors deserve deference because they are conditioned to submit to guidelines formulated by experts? There is a lack of consensus on many long-standing, common medical questions, much l…

Great point. Perhaps the idea is that neither you nor the avg doc can conclude much from reading 10 studies. Therefore, defer to the experts? As to why the COVID situation is different, presumably because prostate cancer screening affects only you (and perhaps your family in the case of a true/false positive/negative diagnosis), and COVID represents a threat to everyone around you, and everyone around them, etc.

I wasn't clear. Most of the time, as with prostrate screenings, one of the following is true:

- There is no expert consensus (on treatments, etiology, etc.).

- Consensus exists, but the level of consensus is overstated.

- There is broad consensus, but with relatively low confidence.

A generalized public health threat like a pandemic doesn't change the epistemological calculus, nor the sociology of knowledge.

Re: Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#353

It was a fun read, but implying that a drug dealer from Kern county is related to a published researcher from Mexico just because they have the same surname is not really cool.

It is pretty cringy. I believe the implication is that the study was so poorly performed and produced such outlandish results that the researchers had to be high on drugs or something...

Re: Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#354
post #6

This is exactly the sort of thing that YouTube, Twitter, et al are suppressing. Someone thoughtfully listening seriously to what the proponents of Ivermectin are saying, weighing it up and saying "looks good but you forgot...". You can't get this sort of excellent rebuttal without allowing a site like https://ivmmeta.com/ into the debate.

> This is exactly the sort of thing that YouTube, Twitter, et al are suppressing

I fear that if it had any name except Scott Alexander's attached to it, it would have been flagged/dead on here within a few minutes as well.

Re: Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Natural selection.

How will natural selection act on parasites if there are no parasites in the animal?

It obviously cannot. But the issue isn't giving it to animals without any parasites, it is in giving it to animals with parasites but that do not need the anti-parasitic in order to recover. Once you have determined that the animal is sick enough to need treatment and that the sickness is most likely caused by the parasites, then you can make the decision that the risk of furthering resistance is outweighed by the need to treat the animal. If you have determined that there is no chance the animal has parasites, then there's no risk of furthering resistance but also no need to give the treatment.

Re: Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Natural selection.

How will natural selection act on parasites if there are no parasites in the animal?

In nature, both the antiparasitic and the parasite will have a tendency to end up in places that you don't necessarily want them to be for the purposes of motivated hypothetical reasoning.

Re: Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#357

In my opinion, the main crux is this: there are moneyed interests who are motivated to generate mistrust and otherization based on political parties. In the USA, Fox News has a strong incentive to inspire hatred and fear of Democratic policy, and MSNBC has a strong incentive to inspire hatred of the GOP. The same is true for Twitter, FB, NYT, WSJ, WaPo, literally any media outlet. Hatred, fear, outrage, worry, anxiet…

> Now, the GOP has leaned into anti-scientist, anti-elitist sentiments, fed by Fox News and others..

I wouldn't fault them for your view of their broad sentiments on this trend but I think if you went back over the last twenty years, these sentiments were more often aligned for the left-wing.

"The real conversation has to be about what solutions we're in favor of." -- Dan Crenshaw, on the Daily Show

https://youtu.be/HWsS7N8KmYY?t=1141

Re: Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#358
post #246
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and that fact check evaluates to "false"?

Yeah. Reuters says it’s false. John Campbell, a retired nurse with a PhD in philosophy was fact checked on it as well. He has a response video: https://youtu.be/ObTAOvgd_JE It doesn’t really matter given that ivermectin is not effective.

> It doesn’t really matter given that ivermectin is not effective.

Unfortunately, you're in disagreement with doctors who have personally saved thousands of lives. Ask the people who came up with the MATH+ protocol if ivermectin could just be discarded. They'll say no.

https://covid19criticalcare.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/F...

Re: Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#359

A friend’s wife has been suffering the effects of long haul COVID-19 for about two months. A few weeks ago her doctor gave her a prescription for Ivermectin and while still very ill, she is feeling better, and the improvement happened quickly. Just one datapoint. I myself am very careful, vaccinations and I wear a quality mask when shopping. My wife and I have reduced our social circle to just about ten people who we…

Any possibility that part of her long covid symptoms were due to an undiagnosed parasitic worm infection that got worse due to the covid treatment's immune suppression?

Re: Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#360
post #133
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could try spreading the truth instead of bullying people? I do care about my mothers health you know. And if a doctor isn't convinced by a large number of studies I want them to explain why not rather than call me a conspiracy peddler. The way someone gets ivermectin is to walk a doctor through the evidence they've seen and then ask them to prescribe it.

I am a doc. I am also a medical researcher, but you (and most other people here) _have_ to realize that the vast majority of practicing MDs are _not_ scientists, and understand almost nothing when reading medical studies. And that's fine, because it's not their job. The profession is bound by guidelines and expert opinion. Experts do research, formulate guidelines, and guidelines get applied by practitioners. And no,…

As someone who is actually an expert in a subfield of medicine, not only do doctors not understand it at all, but the experts making guidelines often recommend the exact opposite of what is the best treatment for the patient, usually for liability reasons, but occasionally for true lack of understanding. The quality of research is so poor that often times there are more flawed studies showing X than proper studies which would show ~X. Other times there is no research on the matter at all, and the conventional wisdom (even among experts!) is incorrect. For fields where practice and theory diverge, like an experimental surgery with sparse research, the surgeons know that the guidelines are useless.

What you yourself _have_ to realize is that the expert researchers who are in a position to create and inform guidelines are themselves not some kind of 'super-experts' who know everything better than normal experts. They're just researchers in a political position in a bureaucracy.

I don't exaggerate when I say that an average HN reader could write better guidelines for patient outcomes in my subfield, with no prior training, simply by reading a few studies and observing a practice.

Now, does any of this apply to internal medicine, specifically covid? Probably not. But when the data is anything other than crystal clear, you should not assume the expert guidelines are anything more than some guesses by guys in a room. The consequence of knowing this is that all guidelines and consensus is suspect until you see the data yourself, like TFA outlines. In this case it seems true that Ivermectin doesn't cure covid. But with my experience, the exact opposite result could have been shown and I would not be surprised whatsoever; experts saying it doesn't work does not constitute in my eyes anything other than noise until the data is clear.

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