To my fellow Hacker News contributors • Hacker News Board

Re: To my fellow Hacker News contributors

#11

Post by arkitaip » Thu, Aug 25, 2011, 4:20 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #2

Yeah, it's hard to say what - if anything - to do about this. Like you say, if you post a reply to a comment that you downvoted, you are - arguably - just adding more noise. But, then again, people always complain about "ninja downvoting" and say "if you're going to downvote me, at least tell me why." But the last time I left a reply to something I downvoted, my reply in turn got downvoted pretty quickly (although it…

The problem is that you're having a difference of opinion with someone, who uses the downvote to disagree with you in the strongest possible way. As long as HN allows up/down votes this problem will exist. They are two fundamentally flawed tools that result in quarrels and mistrust.

Re: To my fellow Hacker News contributors

#12

Post by edw519 » Thu, Aug 25, 2011, 4:21 PM UTC

I mean that I am making myself feel worse for reading HN...

That's a signal that your focus has shifted a little too much from your own work to HN. Take a day off and invest that energy back where it belongs. We'll be here when you get back. Promise.

EDIT: Added tags (Lighten up you guys).

Re: To my fellow Hacker News contributors

#13

Post by 3pt14159 » Thu, Aug 25, 2011, 4:22 PM UTC

Is it really that bad? HN is still an oasis of civil discourse in a desert of internet trolls.

Re: To my fellow Hacker News contributors

#14

Post by tptacek » Thu, Aug 25, 2011, 4:22 PM UTC

We are all going to nod our heads to this post, but as 'raganwald knows, nothing is going to change as a result. The inoculations against tribalism and tribal drama are cultural. Whatever vaccine HN had against this, it's worn off.

My take is, flag these topics off the site. Cut them off like a gangrenous limb. We want to keep the leg, but even more, we want our heart to keep beating.

But then, a vocal subset of HN users is offended by the idea that story upvotes don't mean it's OK to debate libertarianism vs. liberalism here, so don't misread this comment as prescriptive. We're not going to fix this problem. I'm also fine with that.

Ed's right too, of course. Are you here to hear what the average HN'er thinks about Steve Jobs? No, you're not. I read HN in two ways, both of which still work for me:

* I scan for stories I have something to contribute to, and

* I read a shortlist of users whose presence on a thread have been reliable signifiers of quality. (The list is on my profile.)

Try doing that. You'll miss a lot of HN; a good thing!

Re: To my fellow Hacker News contributors

#15

Post by brudgers » Thu, Aug 25, 2011, 4:24 PM UTC

Sorry, but I don't see this as a big issue. Discussing Apple is disproportionately interesting because of the reactions it invokes.

Whenever there is a major story about Apple, there will typically be a tribal war because Apple has positioned itself as a tribal artifact (e.g. think differently, I'm a Mac, dolphin shorts v. grey suits)...

And forgive me for being a cynic, but it wouldn't surprise me if Job's resignation had been sitting in a can to be used in the case of fire...and yesterday morning, Apple's security incompetence regarding OSX Lion had all the makings of a major PR fire which has now been swept off everyone's radar screen like so much anthrax after 911.

Re: To my fellow Hacker News contributors

#16

Post by rewind » Thu, Aug 25, 2011, 4:26 PM UTC

arkitaip wrote: post #4

Comment down/up votes have to go. People should be adult enough to be able read a post without someone telling them what's readworthy or not. Life is not a popularity contest where you tally how many points you've gotten for playing the game well. Members should, however, be able to flag comments that violate the guidelines so that the mods can deal with spam and other transgressions.

Not everyone looks at it as a popularity contest though. A lot of people look at it as "holy shit, there are a hundred comments in this thread, I don't have time to read them all, and I'm glad I can see what the collective opinion is about which ones are worth reading first". The "popularity contest" aspect of it is a problem, but the "popularity" aspect of it isn't.

Re: To my fellow Hacker News contributors

#17

Post by ForrestN » Thu, Aug 25, 2011, 4:28 PM UTC

I definitely share this experience, for instance in many of the recent "Groupon is a scam" threads, or anything having to do with Android. It becomes a disincentive to participate in conversations about certain topics.

I think one thing that might help, and that often spurs relatively useless chains of comments, is to clarify exactly when a post should be downvoted. I think some people use downvoting to express disagreement, but since downvoting not only compromises someone's reputation (via karma) but also minimizes the visibility of the comment, the effect is punishment for that disagreement, which again motivates me at least to avoid controversial topics where I seem to hold an uncommon view.

Re: To my fellow Hacker News contributors

#18

Post by arkitaip » Thu, Aug 25, 2011, 4:29 PM UTC

arkitaip wrote: post #4

Comment down/up votes have to go. People should be adult enough to be able read a post without someone telling them what's readworthy or not. Life is not a popularity contest where you tally how many points you've gotten for playing the game well. Members should, however, be able to flag comments that violate the guidelines so that the mods can deal with spam and other transgressions.

Just to prove my point, I'm getting downvoted for the comment above :) Some people simply cannot handle the downvote.

Re: To my fellow Hacker News contributors

#19

Post by hugh3 » Thu, Aug 25, 2011, 4:30 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #6

mindcrime wrote: post #2

Yeah, it's hard to say what - if anything - to do about this. Like you say, if you post a reply to a comment that you downvoted, you are - arguably - just adding more noise. But, then again, people always complain about "ninja downvoting" and say "if you're going to downvote me, at least tell me why." But the last time I left a reply to something I downvoted, my reply in turn got downvoted pretty quickly (although it…

> Like you say, if you post a reply to a comment that you downvoted, you are - arguably - just adding more noise. // Personally I think HN has degraded vastly since we lost scores. I see far more downvotes for disagreement and apparently less interest in supporting good argument. It's really hard now to read HN and get much from it unless the topic is one you want to read every single comment on. I hope I'm not dragg…

I agree, invisible comment scores add noise, because if I read something I agree strongly with I feel compelled to show my approval. In the old days clicking the up-arrow would show a suitable quantum of approval, but nowadays I sometimes feel compelled to add a comment which just says "I agree" and perhaps adds some minor extra point.

While typing this comment it occurred to me that this comment falls into that very category. Whoops.

Re: To my fellow Hacker News contributors

#20

Post by webwright » Thu, Aug 25, 2011, 4:32 PM UTC

I would love there to be varied flag options for comments. i.e. you click "Flag" and it spawns a dropdown with:

"Off-topic" "Rude" "Ad Hominem" "Straw Man"

If enough flaggers agree on the lack of value (and the reason for it), punt it AND ALL OF THE REPLIES.