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The benefits of not belonging

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Re: The benefits of not belonging

#111

Post by Broken_Hippo »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #21
IAmWorried wrote: post #3

Honestly does anybody NOT feel alienated in our current society? The US is overly hostile, we imported the whole world and all its cultural hangups with it. I mean if you're white people are shitting on you, if you're black people are shitting on you, if you're male people are shitting on you, if you're female people are shitting on you... like what exactly is this country FOR? Does anybody REALLY feel like they belo…

Turn off the TV and anti-social media, take a walk in the sunshine, and voila.

I was alive before the internet. I've never really watched much tv.

And I don't have the time to tell you how much that sucked. You are stuck in whatever place you happened to be, especially as a child or not having much money. If you can't find folks to accept you, you are just cast aside.

I*m not sure how walking in sunshine was supposed to help me when folks assumed I was lesbian and freaking avoided me (they were half right, but I didn't deserve this). Or followed me around laughing, saying "She's soooo stupid!". And so on. Every. Single. Day. I finally made friends, and people would ask them why they were friends with me.

But yeah, I'll go off and walk in sunshine and everything will be OK.

On the other hand, I got older and found folks on the internet that accepted me. I could finally talk to people while being myself. I am in a stable relationship thanks to this (and moved countries: While some folks are anti-immigrant, more accept that I'm a bit weird and/or will explain social norms if I mess up).

You can keep your sunshine.

Re: The benefits of not belonging

#112

Post by Aloha »

WalterBright wrote: post #109
Aloha wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we still need to fulfill the promise of the New Deal and the Great Society, the Great Society specifically failed because of programs constructed in haste by men with too little knowledge of the real world in which those programs would need to function. We have a huge and growing poverty problem, one the Democrats and Republicans seem to be ignoring, we have to ratchet down misery level, a failure to do so im…

The entrenched poverty problem started with the Great Society. (The poverty rate stopped declining in 1968.) The US has never had more opportunity for people than today. Example 1: anyone can get an MIT education for free on the internet. Example 2: anyone can reach a worldwide market, for free, via the internet, and using Amazon. Example 3: anyone can make a movie, and distribute it to the world on youtube, for free…

They can't do any of those things if they have to work two jobs to keep a roof over their head. There is a point where if you're of average intelligence and ability you can't try harder because all of your try is consumed by just getting by.

The US does indeed have tons of opportunity, I'm a high school dropout, who is now an engineer. Thats an American success story. But I'm luckier than most because I got real lucky in the intelligence department. For a long time, I thought I was an average guy, no smarter than anyone else, then I went out and did complex system design, and then had to write the training material and train the users when I was done, and only then I could see something I hadn't before. I'm frankly smarter than half of the population (and so are basically 100% of the people who use hacker news). People like us will find some form of opportunity when there isn't any obviously available.

I'll rebut your answers:

Example 1: to make use of that free MIT education, you must be of above average intelligence, more importantly, you must have time not consumed by meeting your daily essential needs.

Example 2: you must have some product to sell, one that you can make and sell in volume, there are other sites that allow handicrafts, but its hard to make a living off of handicrafts, and its a big leap to go from individual production to serial production in a factory without capital.

Example 3: you must have talent for doing something worth watching, otherwise it doesn't make money.

Example 4: same as example 3, though, perversely, if you're really really bad, you can actually make money, but being that level of awful is a talent unto itself, and most people are not willing to subject themselves to that level of humiliation.

We have massive issues with access to the legal system by the poor, we've extended the cult of personal responsibility to the extent we now just blame the poor for being poor. We also treat debt like a sacred obligation, if your wealthy its easy to discharge debts thru bankruptcy, not so much if you're poor.

I wrote a huge paper about this with a friend of mine last summer. Please take the time to read it, and I think you'll understand more about why I feel so passionately about this.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Bfu3pw1pid_2HcDYeAlSyj21...

Re: The benefits of not belonging

#113

Post by ido »

WalterBright wrote: post #109
Aloha wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we still need to fulfill the promise of the New Deal and the Great Society, the Great Society specifically failed because of programs constructed in haste by men with too little knowledge of the real world in which those programs would need to function. We have a huge and growing poverty problem, one the Democrats and Republicans seem to be ignoring, we have to ratchet down misery level, a failure to do so im…

The entrenched poverty problem started with the Great Society. (The poverty rate stopped declining in 1968.) The US has never had more opportunity for people than today. Example 1: anyone can get an MIT education for free on the internet. Example 2: anyone can reach a worldwide market, for free, via the internet, and using Amazon. Example 3: anyone can make a movie, and distribute it to the world on youtube, for free…

Millions of destitute people are trying to get into any developed country - not just America - because life in the developing world is even worse. This doesn't mean the US is doing great.

Re: The benefits of not belonging

#114

Post by WalterBright »

Aloha wrote: post #112
WalterBright wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entrenched poverty problem started with the Great Society. (The poverty rate stopped declining in 1968.) The US has never had more opportunity for people than today. Example 1: anyone can get an MIT education for free on the internet. Example 2: anyone can reach a worldwide market, for free, via the internet, and using Amazon. Example 3: anyone can make a movie, and distribute it to the world on youtube, for free…

They can't do any of those things if they have to work two jobs to keep a roof over their head. There is a point where if you're of average intelligence and ability you can't try harder because all of your try is consumed by just getting by . The US does indeed have tons of opportunity, I'm a high school dropout, who is now an engineer. Thats an American success story. But I'm luckier than most because I got real luc…

Have you noticed the hundreds of thousands of totally destitute people flowing over the border, and becoming successful in America? According to your philosophy, that should be impossible.

Re: The benefits of not belonging

#115

Post by WalterBright »

Aloha wrote: post #112
WalterBright wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entrenched poverty problem started with the Great Society. (The poverty rate stopped declining in 1968.) The US has never had more opportunity for people than today. Example 1: anyone can get an MIT education for free on the internet. Example 2: anyone can reach a worldwide market, for free, via the internet, and using Amazon. Example 3: anyone can make a movie, and distribute it to the world on youtube, for free…

They can't do any of those things if they have to work two jobs to keep a roof over their head. There is a point where if you're of average intelligence and ability you can't try harder because all of your try is consumed by just getting by . The US does indeed have tons of opportunity, I'm a high school dropout, who is now an engineer. Thats an American success story. But I'm luckier than most because I got real luc…

> you must have talent

Talent is way overrated. Talent is good for 1%, the rest is training to upgrade your skills. Of course, if you never try, failure is 100% guaranteed.

BTW, I know some very successful people who aren't that smart. Being smart just means you learn faster. Not being smart doesn't mean you can't learn skills that are in demand.

Re: The benefits of not belonging

#116

Post by cblconfederate »

em-bee wrote: post #87
cblconfederate wrote: post #29

I was just wondering, are there disconnected internets that i can join? I d rather stay in a limited sector that is not overpopulated and oversaturated with the mainstream, even if it has huge downsides. Just like how biology uses membranes to build the useful stuff , i think we need harder borders between internet communities to increase the variance. Everyone moving around like a giant mob and lashing at each other…

well, isn't that what hackernews is? or other communities like FOSS? or any group focused on specific topics? i disagree with the hard borders though. that just creates bubbles. i also want to participate in different communities based on my interests. some of which are a completely different group of people.

I dont think they are, they are open to basically everyone. It's more likely other-language forums, where language acts as a barrier for participation for outsiders.

Re: The benefits of not belonging

#117

Post by Zababa »

atweiden wrote: post #80
Zababa wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure it does. I see weird people in the subway most days, I see all the time people that look like they spend all their day being outside - doing nothing, there are people making noise at 2 am on a week night, there are people going at crazy speeds on the street, at night or during the day. I feel like lots of people have some kind of weight on their shoulder, and/or one or multiple things bothering them a lo…

> I feel like lots of people have some kind of weight on their shoulder, and/or one or multiple things bothering them a lot. With very few exceptions, there’s nothing healthy or normal about living in chaotic, densely populated urban areas with high crime and endless noise, air and light pollution. In addition, there’s nothing natural about needing to work a bullshit job just to survive. People ought to really start…

> With very few exceptions, there’s nothing healthy or normal about living in chaotic, densely populated urban areas with high crime and endless noise, air and light pollution. In addition, there’s nothing natural about needing to work a bullshit job just to survive.

That's how I feel too. The only difference is that where I live the crime rate here is not that high. But the rest is the same.

Re: The benefits of not belonging

#118

Post by azth »

IAmWorried wrote: post #3

Honestly does anybody NOT feel alienated in our current society? The US is overly hostile, we imported the whole world and all its cultural hangups with it. I mean if you're white people are shitting on you, if you're black people are shitting on you, if you're male people are shitting on you, if you're female people are shitting on you... like what exactly is this country FOR? Does anybody REALLY feel like they belo…

That's what the woke policies that aim to divide society get you. The question is, how many people are falling for that narrative? I'd wager most people don't care at all if they're not listening to mainstream and social media.

Re: The benefits of not belonging

#119

Post by Aloha »

WalterBright wrote: post #114
Aloha wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can't do any of those things if they have to work two jobs to keep a roof over their head. There is a point where if you're of average intelligence and ability you can't try harder because all of your try is consumed by just getting by . The US does indeed have tons of opportunity, I'm a high school dropout, who is now an engineer. Thats an American success story. But I'm luckier than most because I got real luc…

Have you noticed the hundreds of thousands of totally destitute people flowing over the border, and becoming successful in America? According to your philosophy, that should be impossible.

Yes, they're also smarter than those being left behind. We are literally stealing those countries best and brightest stars.it's generally good for us, and bad for them.

Re: The benefits of not belonging

#120

Post by bobthechef »

sqldba wrote: post #44
bxparks wrote: post #14

I wonder if there is a bit of survivorship bias in this article. Some kids grow up in a non-friendly environment, but develop the skills to deal with the adversity, and when they grow up, those skills become highly advantageous. Other kids whither and fall apart in such an adverse environment, suffer from low self-esteem, substance abuse, and other mental illnesses, and never get the chance to reap the benefits of be…

Yeah I mean for starters the author appear to have been rich as hell from the very beginning. I’m sure that helps soothe the sting of being an “outsider”. But I decided not to take the article personally because they’re not claiming something universal about outsiders.

He wrote that he wasn't rich.
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